The Art of Commercial Storytelling | Kinolime Podcast Ep 24

Show Notes

This video features a discussion between John Schramm and Danny Murray on the current streaming market and how screenwriters can adapt their work to meet the demands of major platforms. They explore how films are becoming a primary revenue driver for streamers due to their rewatchability compared to one-off hit series.12 Six Screenwriting Tips for the Streaming Era Open Fast or Get Skipped: High drop-off rates occur within the first five minutes on platforms like Netflix, so it is crucial to hook the audience immediately.3 High Concept Over High Cast: Streamers often see better performance from strong, high-concept ideas (like thrillers or horror) than from prestige films that rely solely on expensive, big-name stars.4 Keep it Tight: The "sweet spot" for streaming retention is films between 90 and 105 minutes; shorter films often see significantly higher completion rates.5 End with a Bang: Prioritize rewatchability and "sharability" by including a strong payoff, catharsis, or twist ending that keeps people talking.6 Think Visually (The Thumbnail Test): Ensure the story is visually compelling and easy to communicate through images, as some executives now use a pitch's effectiveness as a "thumbnail" as a litmus test.7 Think Globally: Focus on universal themes—such as survival, revenge, or grief—that can easily translate and play across different international markets.

Full Transcript

[00:00]

Is it really worth to spend $25 million on one guy in your movie?

[00:06]

Yeah, and it's also, I mean, I love Procedure movies and there's a place for them for sure, but again, thinking about your idea now has to sell it as a center.

[00:13]

Hello, all. Welcome to a Monday edition of the Keenaline podcast. I'm John Tram here in studio with Danny Murray, Tumor, right? You're left. What's up, D?

[00:32]

Man, this is a long weekend. No, Dodger talk. I don't want to hear it. I'm so thrilled, you know, I'm having the best time I've had since last year.

[00:41]

Dude, talk about best time. Your hair volume right now is incredible. I know I do this and then it, you know, it explodes. I love it. And it's like the least amount of volume my family. You know, everyone else has like a microphone. No, I like to call it. Yeah, because that's your coffin. It's going to be a coffin.

[00:58]

I wanted to talk about I sent this in our Keenaline global group chat. Maybe I don't know, two weeks ago. I read an article from the Hollywood reporter titled How Movies Are Increasingly Driving Streaming Revenue.

[01:14]

And I'm not really a numbers guy, but I found it fascinating that the article surmises that streamers are increasingly relying on films for their revenue, which I just stayed in the title.

[01:26]

But it was kind of like an aha moment for me like, wait a second, I'm like, I thought as one would TV is the main source of revenue for these big streaming giants, but actually no films are because people go back and rewatch their favorite films over and over again.

[01:43]

I suppose to watching a hit series that maybe you watch once and kind of never revisit again. And it just goes into some other nerdy details about the length of series versus a film.

[01:54]

And then I looked up another article from MediaPost, which I don't know if it's from this or wherever, but somewhere I came across that one executive says a strong movie delivers returns faster than any mini series.

[02:06]

And it got me thinking like, dude, this is great news for movies. I don't know. Did you read the articles? What do you think? Yeah, I did.

[02:13]

I mean, it kind of touches on something that's been blowing my mind since maybe like peak TV like 10 years ago, which is just like, you know, you would hear that game of Thrones is spending 25 million.

[02:23]

Million dollars in episode. I'm like, huh, like that feels like we could be using that money to make so many more movies.

[02:34]

And of course, first something like Game of Thrones or like, you know, you're breaking bads, it makes more sense.

[02:38]

You'll go back and rewatch that like every five years, but then there's spending that same amount of money on like over and many series that no one cares.

[02:46]

That's the key right there.

[02:47]

Folks, is that yes, you only get the sopranos, the wire, Game of Thrones, I just need three HBO shows plus breaking bad.

[02:55]

Like those only calm every so often, which you will rewatch every five years, but that's a huge time commitment as well, right?

[03:01]

Whereas like a good film like, you know, every year, Home Alone is going to rank in Bukku Bucks during holiday season.

[03:07]

And I don't care. I've seen a thousand. I'm going to watch it again.

[03:09]

So I thought that was really interesting. And I wanted to come up with some tips for y'all writers out there regarding this.

[03:17]

Now look, I want to be very honest with you. I hate going with the flow of the market. I think you should write what you love.

[03:24]

I don't like damn the stats and the data, but it is interesting to see because if you were thinking about, okay, so that's the purist in me.

[03:33]

And there's like the realist part of me that's like, hey, dude, if you want to sell your screenplay, if you want to get out there,

[03:38]

if you want to be a working writer, you kind of have to know the market a bit.

[03:41]

Yeah. Right. And like, you know, they talk about studios are increasingly spending on 90 to 105 minute films as opposed to high, uh, longer films.

[03:52]

They're doing more high concept than star driven vehicles. So I curated a list of six screenwriting tips that we can come

[03:58]

delivered to you. And then Daniel, we're just going to riff a bit. So tip number one, open fast or get skipped.

[04:07]

Now according to Bloomberg, Netflix sees massive drop offs after that five minute mark. Right. So if the story hasn't kicked that algorithm in for them, they're abandoning all hope.

[04:17]

So it makes me think about like, hey, you got to treat your screenplay like someone's, you got five minutes of someone's attention.

[04:24]

Will you hook them in those five minutes? I don't know. Do you think about that?

[04:28]

Yeah, it's something that, you know, on a show I was working on maybe like four or five years ago, we received that same kind of note that a lot of these streamers, if they are not completely engrossed within, sometimes the first page, it is not, you know, they'll either ask you to rewrite it or it's not something they will consider.

[04:48]

Yeah. It's just how their algorithms work. Like you do not have the time to kind of slow burn in. No, like a 20 minute kind of, you know,

[04:58]

intro to the film. Now every start quick, every fiber of my being hates this because I believe like it should be like a fine wine. Like it should open up. But again, this is if you're trying to break it, if you're really trying to get known as trying to get that agent that manager sells something, you kind of have to know the rules to break the rules.

[05:13]

So if they're looking at that five minute algorithm, or hook them by page two, yeah, pacing is no longer a craft. It's not a business metric, which again, burns me in my soul.

[05:24]

But it's just something to be aware of when going into your past. Yeah, it's just last kind of quick note on that, right? Because if you read any like the intro screenplay books, it's like you're

[05:32]

inciting incident needs to be on page 10. And then you know, at some point, maybe a decade ago, it's like you should push that up a little quicker. Yeah.

[05:39]

Now like really if you are trying, if you have the ability to have a, you know, your big popping scene on page one or two, do it. Yeah.

[05:51]

So this is an interesting tip that I thought of is that based on the research, high concept is beating out high cast. Now one battle after another, we'll talk about how it may lose money, which is a sin because that moves incredible.

[06:04]

This is very well. Yeah. This year will. But specifically for streamers, they're seeing that high concept with no name cast tend to outperform, prestige films with a giant cast.

[06:15]

So when you're writing your film, think of it for you don't no longer need the big cast aims to get your script greenlit like it's all about the concept will like rom com thrillers horror. Those are always doing well and streaming again.

[06:30]

Not saying you have to write that, but just be aware that that's kind of where the market's going. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because some of like one battle after another is an incredible film. But you know, when you look at a lot of these movies, and you're like, how is it possible that this movie was

[06:45]

this much money is generally because the producers are taking mass of fees. And I like say to caprio on one battle after another gets first. First gross.

[06:54]

First dollar gross. That's insane. I know. But good for him. Yeah. So then you all money. Yeah. That can very easily like double or balloon your budget into like, you know, nine figure mania. Yeah.

[07:07]

And yeah, I guess like in a time when the film industry is contracting media is contracting.

[07:14]

Inflations up like you do kind of have to wonder like, is it really worth to spend $25 million on you know, one guy in your movie?

[07:24]

Yeah. And it's also I mean, I love prestige movies and there's a place for them for sure. But again, thinking about your idea now has to sell at a sentence, which it always kind of has been. But yeah.

[07:33]

Having those larger drama films that you know, maybe don't unfurl nicely like, but you kind of got to get to the point high concept. As of now tends to be what they're looking for. So just be aware.

[07:47]

Mm-hmm. That's what the streamers are looking for.

[07:50]

Tip three, but this has always been a favorite of mine. And I debate with Fred LeBoe on this is like, keep your screen played tight 90 to 110 pages 105. They say.

[08:00]

Now Fred, who we had on here a bit ago, we'll say like, damn the rules 120 pages is enough time. And I tend to agree like the great screenplays that I've read in the past.

[08:10]

You are gripped at 120, but these are like masters at their craft and know how to maximize and be efficient with 120.

[08:17]

Well, we find, at least I'll speak for myself, is if I'm getting 120 page screenplay, there's there's 15 pages of fat you can cut. Yeah. Right. So I think it's not a bad thing to keep it shorter.

[08:27]

Because about retention, they're seeing that in that 105 minute mark, that's the sweet spot for streaming films.

[08:34]

Dink. Yeah, I mean, kind of on the same note I brought up in your first tip, but a lot of these buyers will tell you blatantly like, you know, if, you know, depending on what type of film is like, there was a documentary.

[08:49]

I worked on like a couple years ago and they pretty much said like, it's going to be really hard for us to even really consider something over the 80 minute mark.

[08:57]

Like that type of film has to be an hour and 20 minutes where people will watch something else. I know. It's that same thing with movies.

[09:06]

Unless you're talking about prestige directors, massive, you know, kind of like awards driven campaigns, which, you know, every year, what there's 100 films with real financial back and trying to get there.

[09:18]

Five to 10 of them will get that acclaim like you need to, especially if you're like an aspiring writer, try to work in that box if you can.

[09:25]

To star again, go make your great couple hits, then do your prestige film. I somewhere I wrote a found Netflix and prior report up to 40% higher completion for movies under that 105 minute mark.

[09:36]

So again, if you're thinking about selling to a streamer or want to get it on there, think about that zone of where to hit because it's time to man like who I mean, we find the time because it's a huge passion, but people go to TV because they can do something in 30 minutes, but what's odd and in.

[09:52]

I wouldn't say hypocritical, but interesting is that they'll end up binging for episodes, which are total of two hours when they could have watched a film, but it kind of goes to where like if again, if you're an aspiring writer, you're not wrapped, you're looking to make something.

[10:06]

Every minute is money, right? You are shedding like if you can make a tide like hour 20 hour 30 minute film.

[10:15]

Sure.

[10:15]

It becomes potentially more makeable for you to kind of have like a proof of concept, you know, wheel out and try to make that to our movie.

[10:25]

So tip four, end with a bang.

[10:27]

So streamers are streamers, see rewatchability and shareability is more valuable than awards, received.

[10:33]

They want that twist ending that people talk about.

[10:35]

They want to have that wall up at the end that hits you.

[10:38]

So people can go to oh my god, did you see this and Spielberg said this a while ago that you are two most important parts of your screenplay, the first 10 minutes in the last 10 minutes, right?

[10:48]

Because you hope that's what you're remembering sitting out in the theater and being gripped and then your last minutes, that's what you're leaving with.

[10:54]

So it's kind of the same thing, but you really want to end with that bang again, based on the market research and what we're gathering from here.

[11:01]

I don't know if there's anything else to add to that, but seems pretty self explanatory.

[11:06]

Yeah, I mean, I was just trying to think of, you know, it's a shame that a lot of the kind of like awards films like have not kind of played outside of festivals.

[11:16]

Yeah, I'm excited to kind of see, you know, from like the kind of best picture, so that we get assume we're going to make it like secret agent.

[11:25]

You know, it was an accident.

[11:26]

Sure.

[11:28]

I've heard a lot about some of them kind of ending on these big kind of like needle drop moments.

[11:35]

Yeah, it's interesting because you shouldn't.

[11:38]

Again, if it works for your film that you need to have that fade out and like have you listening, but it doesn't necessarily mean have to have a twist.

[11:45]

It just mean catharsis.

[11:47]

Like give the audience some relief, some gratification, some peak to that, you know, rollercoaster as opposed to just like fading out into nothingness and dwelling on.

[11:56]

Again, there are a few masters that can do that well.

[11:59]

And I love those movies, but for the majority of us mortals, I think think twist, catharsis.

[12:05]

Pay off, you know, proper ending.

[12:07]

Fifth one, this is interesting because Hitchcock would think in terms of visuals, obviously as a director, but your fifth tip here is your thumbnail or your think of a storyboard, whatever is really telling your story.

[12:21]

So they claim that an Netflix exec said that they pass on pitches that don't work as a thumbnail.

[12:27]

That's the new litmus test.

[12:28]

So what that could mean is they want to see everything.

[12:31]

Um, visually compelling, right?

[12:35]

Nothing boring to the eye.

[12:37]

Like if you were to pause your movie, doesn't look like a painting or doesn't look interesting to look at.

[12:43]

And again, I find that I find that interesting because we are telling stories through images.

[12:49]

So you want your images to see you into the mind of your reader.

[12:53]

And if it's just boring and, you know, uh, blasé, you know, that could be interesting.

[12:59]

And when I write, I tend to sometimes, if I'm stuck, think visually, like, how can I convey this through just image?

[13:06]

I find that kind of an interesting writing technique.

[13:08]

I don't know what your thoughts are.

[13:09]

Yeah, I think, you know, I was telling this to someone yesterday.

[13:13]

Um, but, you know, having an amazing story is obviously the most critical aspect of trying to get a movie made.

[13:20]

It's like inspired, of course.

[13:22]

But having like a really great deck that can communicate to producers and to, again, like in the entire industry,

[13:29]

like there is maybe one or two people in the totem pole that will actually read your story and shall everyone else of its worthwhile.

[13:35]

After that, it is primarily a sales job up the ladder, right?

[13:40]

Have a great deck, um, a film that kind of, I went to a Q&A with the star, the film, indeed, the dog, uh,

[13:48]

and his owners who produce and directed it.

[13:50]

But this film, Good Boy, that is, I think out in theaters right now.

[13:54]

Um, it got picked up.

[13:56]

It's a really good concept.

[13:57]

It's a horror movie through the lens of a dog and it was going to get like a pretty small release.

[14:02]

And then they released a new poster.

[14:04]

Say that it was a really, it went viral and it was just like of these monsters and it, it communicated the story perfectly.

[14:12]

It went viral and then I think, I forget who distributed it, it may have been neon,

[14:18]

gave it wide release after the poster went viral.

[14:21]

And that's something to think about when writing is that we, or I tend to think every 10 pages,

[14:27]

a twist, something new, something interesting.

[14:28]

How do you like shift the audience a little bit, jolt them to, or the reader to, to dive in?

[14:34]

Think of that with a, from a visual standpoint, every 10, 15 pages, is there a movie poster hidden

[14:38]

in there somewhere? Is there something where you could pause, right?

[14:40]

Well, create something that would convey an image better to your audience.

[14:44]

Again, I hate that we have to sell it this way.

[14:47]

I really, really do.

[14:48]

It should just be about the words, but again, who are the people buying and putting money into your pocket to make

[14:53]

a movie, you kind of have to play a little bit ball of what they're going for.

[14:57]

That I really like.

[14:58]

Especially if, again, like that movie is a good example because these were not,

[15:02]

you know, big name filmmakers, like, these were people that shot a movie in their house with their

[15:06]

dog. So like, again, if you are not coming in with like, you know, reps and people in the industry,

[15:13]

like, you need to be able to sell the film as well as you need to be able to, you know,

[15:18]

write a great story.

[15:19]

It is pretty much equally important.

[15:21]

And the last tip, which has kind of been around for a while, is think globally, right?

[15:26]

I mean, look at Netflix, like K dramas, everything, you know, people want films that can be translated,

[15:32]

not just by speech or dialogue, but visually, not exactly the right word, not visually.

[15:38]

Can you just play in other markets, right?

[15:41]

Will a Brazilian teenager get your movie?

[15:44]

Now, again, if it's centric to your story to have it take place in America or in your setting,

[15:50]

of course, go for that.

[15:51]

Like, you got to write what you know.

[15:53]

But again, they're just always looking for those movies that can play across the pond and elsewhere

[15:57]

in the world. And it's just something that you can't, you can't ignore.

[16:01]

You got to think of like, how is Netflix going to sell your movie to 100 countries?

[16:04]

Again, if it works and you can do it great, because that'll only going to help you

[16:10]

increase your ability to sell the film or get someone to say yes, because they can then sell it

[16:16]

to other markets.

[16:17]

I don't know what you think. Would you English and get your film that you're writing, Danny?

[16:23]

Well, I think like another good way to kind of look at this is you get oddly enough, like,

[16:30]

there's a lot of buyers that like share this data on like a lot of the film makers subreddits,

[16:36]

oddly enough. And then you could kind of dig to try to find them. But there's a lot of month-to-month

[16:41]

analyses of like what different buyers and different territories are buying, right?

[16:46]

Like, length, genre, type of films. It's probably worth looking into that. Like, if you're kind of

[16:53]

still in like the concept phase to try to get an idea of like, that steers you, that's nice.

[16:57]

Yeah, where can I steer my story to like make it competitive potentially in like a buyer's market?

[17:03]

And when we say globally, it doesn't mean that you have to placate to everyone in the world.

[17:09]

It just means I talk about universal themes like love, revenge, what did I write down?

[17:13]

grief, survival. Those are things that play across anywhere, any any human alive will understand

[17:19]

those themes. That's what I mean. It's just if you again, if your story has to be specific,

[17:23]

so let's say New York City and this one burrow, like I get it. But if you're telling a more universal

[17:30]

story, like I just mentioned some of those themes, like that just helps play across other markets.

[17:35]

But again, not to be glib like this is good. Like it's good to know what's going on. It doesn't

[17:39]

mean that you have to sell your soul, like go write what you want, but like know the data,

[17:43]

know the rules so you can break the rules, like know what you have. Sandbox your plan and because

[17:46]

again, if your goal is to be a working filmmaker, working writer, where you're getting paid to do

[17:51]

this for a living, like yeah, you kind of have to know like, who are the people paying my paycheck?

[17:55]

What are they looking for? And I just think it's good to know. So you wanted to share them with you

[17:59]

today. So thank you for letting us ramble for six tips. Yeah. I hope you found them interesting.

[18:04]

I thought it was interesting for them together. Yeah. And like I guess like my last kind of thought

[18:07]

with this is like, you know, this really also like these things shouldn't really box you in because

[18:12]

at the end of the day, like, like most great films have like a really simple dramatic argument.

[18:17]

Yeah. And if you write it very well and if you have characters you believe in and a strong story,

[18:21]

like most of the kind of sales and packaging and how can we communicate this to, you know,

[18:26]

different markets, that usually kind of solves itself if you have a really strong story.

[18:32]

So we're ending with a bang. That was a great third act climax to our talk. Thank you so much

[18:38]

for everyone here at Keenaline. Thank you for tuning in. And we'll see you soon. Keep writing.

The Art of Commercial Storytelling | Kinolime Podcast Ep 24

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