The Best Way to Fund An Indie Film Right Now | Kinolime Podcast Ep 52
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Hosted byJohn Schramm
MG
With guestMike Gabrawy
Review on your platform
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Show Notes
Hollywood isn't the only path anymore. How can indie filmmakers succeed in this new market?
Fresh off the Cannes Film Festival, independent producer Mike Gabrawy joins the Kinolime Podcast to explain why the independent film market is thriving, why there's growing demand for original indie films, and what filmmakers need to do today to actually get their movies made.
From financing and fundraising to social media, branding, and finding your creative voice, Mike shares the practical strategies he's seeing succeed in today's film industry.
In this episode, he discusses practical strategies for financing your next project, from equity to mezzanine financing. Mike also explores why filmmakers should stop waiting for Hollywood and start building their own audience through YouTube, Instagram, and other social platforms, how consistently making short films can help you discover your voice as a writer and director, and what it really takes to build a sustainable career in today's film industry.
We also break down what filmmakers can learn from recent independent successes like The Brutalist, Iron Lung, and Obsession, and why these films represent exciting opportunities for the future of indie cinema.
Whether you're an aspiring filmmaker, producer, director, screenwriter, film student, or content creator, this episode is packed with practical advice you can start applying today to fund your projects, grow an audience, and build a career outside the traditional Hollywood system.
Full Transcript
[00:00]
I think you've just got it, like you've got a seize on this.
[00:03]
There's no barrier for entry right now.
[00:05]
You can make really amazing films with anything
[00:08]
get your hands on.
[00:09]
And then the film gets nominated for an Oscar.
[00:11]
So I think you've got to look at like
[00:13]
how you marry really original storytelling
[00:16]
to an industry now that is like
[00:19]
from a technical standpoint.
[00:21]
There's no barrier for entry.
[00:26]
Welcome everyone to the KinoLine podcast
[00:29]
to zoom with the one and only Mike Cabrawi,
[00:32]
producer extraordinaire coming in live from LA.
[00:35]
We're going to talk all things can.
[00:37]
What you to look for.
[00:38]
Mike was just there for the entire cantrapies.
[00:41]
Got such insight on what's going on today
[00:44]
for young filmmakers, for writers, for the market.
[00:45]
You're going to get inside the brain,
[00:47]
the genius of Mike Cabrawi.
[00:48]
Hey, Mikey, how you doing?
[00:50]
I'm doing good.
[00:51]
I'm doing good.
[00:51]
John, how are you?
[00:52]
So great to see you.
[00:54]
Sorry to get to catch you on this cantrap,
[00:56]
but I've heard wonderful things.
[00:58]
You were glowing the entire time about the market.
[01:00]
So I think I just want to dive in as like,
[01:03]
you know, real quick, what felt different to you
[01:07]
this can than the other dozen or so that you've been to?
[01:11]
I mean, I feel like we've been in a bit of like
[01:15]
the dark ages for the last couple of years.
[01:17]
I feel like the independent film industry
[01:19]
has not really recovered past the past,
[01:21]
since the pandemic.
[01:22]
It feels like we came out of the pandemic,
[01:24]
rocked into, you know, rocked into a double strike,
[01:28]
and then came, then we had this very odd start of last year
[01:32]
with the fires that like really disrupted Hollywood
[01:35]
for, you know, it was a singular event,
[01:38]
but it feels like it disrupted Hollywood for months
[01:40]
because you're not able to really kind of get into business
[01:44]
when people are dealing with much bigger real life disasters.
[01:46]
So it just felt like the industry's been in this like
[01:49]
nebulous, weird spot for years now since the pandemic,
[01:52]
which is already like a really difficult place to be.
[01:55]
And this can for the first time of any of the markets recently
[01:59]
that I've been to felt the most buoyant, positive,
[02:04]
hopeful of anything I've seen recently.
[02:07]
And I think that, you know, we're just seeing an appetite
[02:11]
for films and for independent films that I haven't,
[02:15]
I haven't seen for the last couple of years,
[02:18]
and it's really refreshing.
[02:20]
And I wonder, you know, what you would tribute that to
[02:23]
because I was at the Cannes in 2019 right before COVID.
[02:28]
And the vibe there was fine, you know,
[02:30]
once upon a time in Hollywood premier, parasite, et cetera,
[02:32]
like the bigger films, but the indie feel for sure
[02:36]
was not there.
[02:38]
It felt like we were treading water,
[02:40]
even though no one knew that there was a coronavirus on its way.
[02:43]
But I love how you zero it in on the indie side of things.
[02:46]
Like what do you attribute that to
[02:49]
your estimation?
[02:50]
I mean, I think that there's in this contraction
[02:54]
that's happened in the industry in the past, you know,
[02:56]
several years, I think it's created, it's forced, you know,
[03:01]
I mean, it's independent film in trouble.
[03:03]
Yes, and it has been for about a hundred years, right?
[03:05]
And like there's always going to be a challenge.
[03:09]
And regardless of that challenge,
[03:11]
you're going to have breakout films like the brutalist
[03:14]
in this year obsession.
[03:16]
Like I mean, that is such a great case study
[03:19]
for original storytelling.
[03:20]
And that's what I feel like Hollywood's lost its way
[03:23]
over the past several years.
[03:24]
It's like, you know, the whole kind of fatigue over superhero
[03:28]
movies and sequels and all like that whole kind of like this
[03:32]
industry will atrophy without original stories.
[03:35]
And that's what's been so cool is that you see a movie
[03:38]
like obsession that was made for supposedly under a million
[03:40]
dollars and friendly with the producers,
[03:43]
then it goes on to sell for some astronomical amount,
[03:47]
like $14, $15 million.
[03:48]
And then I think it's going to hit a hundred million
[03:52]
in the box office.
[03:53]
It's a phenomenon.
[03:54]
And I know that's an outlier, but what that shows is that,
[03:59]
you know, kind of original storytelling has value
[04:05]
in the marketplace.
[04:06]
And part of the reason that, you know,
[04:08]
we're struggling so much in this industry is that there's
[04:11]
not enough good movies.
[04:12]
And what this contraction is going to do is force producers
[04:16]
to make better films.
[04:17]
And I've made plenty of kind of straightforward action films
[04:21]
that are less than, you know, less than inspiring,
[04:26]
but that's what the market, that's what the market was demanding.
[04:30]
I just think we're in this really cool place where,
[04:33]
you know, your original storytelling is back in a way.
[04:36]
And this is like the second, the other anecdotal story
[04:40]
is Iron Lung, which was another like phenomenon.
[04:43]
And something we can talk about later about what,
[04:46]
I think there's a case study to be made there.
[04:50]
Yeah, both YouTubers, but going back to what you said about
[04:54]
the declaration of Indies being dead for a hundred years
[04:56]
is a great book by my favorite producer, David O'Cell's neck.
[04:59]
He produced Gone with the Wind and, you know,
[05:01]
Hitchcock's first US film Rebecca.
[05:03]
He's got a great book called On Memo.
[05:05]
And David would always like tell us secretary dictate to a secretary,
[05:09]
you know, the memo for the day.
[05:11]
And you can read his book.
[05:12]
It's, you know, just all the memos, but he was declaring indie films,
[05:15]
you know, people were saying indie films were dead in the 30s.
[05:18]
You know what I mean?
[05:19]
So it's just like we're almost a hundred years later.
[05:21]
And here we are having the same conversation.
[05:23]
It doesn't mean that they're dead.
[05:24]
I just think you're right.
[05:25]
You have to make better movies.
[05:26]
The audience has too much distraction to many options.
[05:30]
And also the price to go to the cinema now is ridiculous
[05:33]
along with the popcorn and the parking and the babysitter.
[05:35]
So you've got to be even better as a filmmaker
[05:38]
to get them to commit and to go because I think that if people do want
[05:43]
original, awesome stories, right?
[05:44]
Obsession, it's an outlier, but it's also a very good film, you know,
[05:49]
and I mean it's very well made.
[05:51]
So I think that speaks to a lot of what people are craving right now.
[05:57]
On the, the financing side and can just to give people a little insight.
[06:00]
What, what have you, you know, you run a lot of meetings?
[06:02]
What were you hearing on the money side, the financing side for filmmakers?
[06:09]
Post can.
[06:10]
You know, I think the, the way that I've made movies and a lot of independent
[06:14]
producers have made movies is driven by the international market and presales.
[06:18]
That has contracted severely with the kind of rise in the streamers and rise
[06:25]
in all these other, you know, other outlets for films to get made.
[06:30]
So you have to be a lot more crafty in how you make movies now.
[06:34]
And that just means that you need to be more versatile that you're either
[06:38]
like I feel like the middle is dropped out.
[06:40]
I've made a lot of movies kind of in that eight to 12 world, eight to 12 million
[06:44]
world. And that is the toughest section from a market standpoint because the
[06:49]
presales are down by, I don't know, 50, 75%.
[06:53]
It's crazy.
[06:54]
So now you have to look at how you bring in other non-traditional film financing,
[06:59]
equity, mesonine financing, other sources brand, you know, brand collaborations
[07:06]
where brands are supporting films, which now every, you know, everybody has
[07:11]
like a production division of their company, like every, like designers and car
[07:16]
companies.
[07:17]
And, and that whole brand entertainment is where a lot of kind of, I think the
[07:21]
ad dollars are going.
[07:23]
So you just have to be more clever about how you're putting your financing
[07:26]
together.
[07:26]
And I think that's, and what, and now you're, I feel like these movies are
[07:32]
either going to be in the world of like iron lung or obsession, like they either
[07:36]
need to go smaller and more interesting and, and, and kind of bootstrap these films
[07:42]
into existence, or they have to be undeniably theatrical.
[07:46]
And they're in that 15 plus world where, you know, the movie looks and smells and
[07:50]
feels like a theatrical film and, and get somebody behind it.
[07:54]
You know, that, I think that you just have to be more crafty about how you put
[08:00]
your finance plan together now because you can't, you can no longer, the years,
[08:05]
the days of presales plus a really attractive subsidy plus a little bit of gap
[08:12]
your movie gets made, that doesn't exist anymore.
[08:14]
So you need to find kind of alternative, kind of financing components, whether
[08:19]
it be, you know, rich dentists or, you know, or, you know, more aggressive
[08:27]
gap funds and mezzanine funds that will come in and, and finance your movie.
[08:31]
What these guys, I think, have successfully done when you look at iron lung or
[08:36]
some of these content creators moving into traditional media, traditional
[08:41]
entertainment is they had, they find their audience first.
[08:44]
And then they take the projects to that audience.
[08:47]
And in that same way, that's what like all these platforms and doing short films
[08:52]
and that's where you build your voice and build your, your, your personal brand
[08:57]
or your personal, you know, vision.
[09:00]
And then you can take that audience to a traditional, you know, traditional
[09:06]
entertainment.
[09:06]
And that's invaluable right now.
[09:08]
If you control the audience, you control the market.
[09:11]
I love that.
[09:12]
And, you know, look, I know just as much as the next guy, but I feel that my
[09:16]
gut's telling me that what these filmmakers are doing so well is they're finding
[09:20]
their audience.
[09:21]
Now there's an audience, I, let's just say objectively, your film is good.
[09:24]
Right.
[09:25]
There's an audience for your film.
[09:27]
You just kind of find it because there are people out there, I believe,
[09:31]
that want to watch your movie.
[09:32]
I truly believe that people are dying for a good film.
[09:35]
Now let's just say if your film's bad, that's a tougher, you know,
[09:38]
ill to climb, but let's just say your film is good.
[09:41]
There is an audience for it out there.
[09:42]
And I think you should take solace and pride in that that there is a way for
[09:47]
you to get your film off the ground.
[09:48]
You just got to go find it.
[09:49]
It's a little extra elbow grease.
[09:50]
I know it's kind of annoying.
[09:52]
Who wants to go out and distribute your film after you went to war, right?
[09:55]
Writing it, producing it, directing, whatever it is to now go find your
[09:58]
audience, but there is an audience out there.
[10:00]
Case in point, the examples Mike kind of brought up.
[10:03]
So for what you heard from the market standpoint on, let's just say genre for
[10:08]
films. What have you, what are people looking for?
[10:11]
I mean, obviously, horror always plays, right?
[10:14]
You mentioned obsession and iron lung, which fit into those that category.
[10:18]
But what have you been hearing that people are looking for?
[10:21]
I mean, I think that they're always going to be looking for those movies.
[10:23]
It's a genre that doesn't require, doesn't necessitate having to get one of
[10:27]
the five names that everybody in the industry is chasing from a casting standpoint.
[10:32]
So horrors, I think is just like always going to be around and, and you're
[10:37]
going to have these breakthrough films that pop and are interesting.
[10:41]
And there were so many great ones in the last couple of years.
[10:45]
And I think this is a, you know, looking at these two, the dimension is a great example.
[10:49]
You know, I feel like there's an appetite now for romantic comedies and, and
[10:55]
YA stuff that I have not seen before in like kind of the space.
[10:59]
So there is like an appetite for that.
[11:01]
And then there's always the perennial, like the usual action thriller sci-fi.
[11:06]
And that's, that's going to go forever because it just travels so easily, right?
[11:12]
A good action film will travel and it's easy to, easy to kind of,
[11:18]
from a cultural or from an audience standpoint translate.
[11:22]
What countries have you been hearing that are becoming maybe major players or
[11:27]
subsidies or, uh, incentive wise?
[11:31]
What's being pushed now?
[11:33]
Because you know, a couple of years ago, it was, um,
[11:38]
Romania, right?
[11:39]
And look, in now, what is the kind of the new up and coming country?
[11:43]
Or maybe or a country that's been here to stay, but maybe you're hearing that it's
[11:48]
becoming really more attractive hub for filmmakers to go.
[11:52]
I mean, I think part of solving this finance problem is identifying the right
[11:58]
subsidy program to realize your movie.
[12:00]
And it starts from the creative standpoint of like, where is this going to fit
[12:03]
creatively?
[12:03]
And then you try to, you know, find out where the best place is to make this movie.
[12:07]
A perfect example is the movie I just finished last resort, which is a really fun kind
[12:14]
of action film set against the backdrop of a spring break.
[12:19]
Uh, that we shot in the Canary Islands.
[12:21]
And I think Canary Islands is one of the most attractive,
[12:24]
busiest subsidy programs and just great depth of crew, great locations.
[12:29]
If you have a film that qualifies EU or you can get a lot of, uh, European
[12:34]
elements into it, it becomes an irresistible program.
[12:37]
They also have co-productions with several countries.
[12:40]
I think the UK, have to say, has a very aggressive incentive right now and great talent.
[12:45]
Um, and then some of the usual suspects that I feel like that will always be attractive
[12:52]
if you can engineer the package in the right way.
[12:55]
It's always going to be Australia, New Zealand, Canada and those three Commonwealth
[13:00]
countries are probably the most.
[13:03]
What's the word I'm looking for?
[13:04]
They're the most, um, you know, heavily subsidized and a, a, and varying degrees of,
[13:11]
you know, varying degrees of kind of national requirements, I should say.
[13:16]
Like, yeah, cast and directors and above the line, that kind of thing.
[13:20]
But when I look at the movie I did before this, the movie I did in Canary, I shot in New
[13:25]
Zealand. You combine a, you know, 40% tax credit, producers offset.
[13:31]
And you combine that to a dollar that at the time was in the mid 50s, I want to say,
[13:35]
or 60 cents to the US dollar, all of a sudden, you know, your,
[13:40]
your 10 million dollar film is actually six million and you're getting half of that out of
[13:44]
the subsidies or whatever the equation is.
[13:46]
And then you're, you need three million out of the market on a really commercial film.
[13:49]
And that becomes much more tenable, right?
[13:52]
From a market standpoint.
[13:53]
So even if you can get to two of that and you got to find one million in equity or a piece of
[13:58]
it as it becomes infinitely more attractive, depending on the genre and the package.
[14:03]
Do you think filmmakers should be looking to their settings to maybe geared toward these
[14:08]
countries because money is so tight right now, do you know, maybe retrofitting their
[14:13]
story into a location to take advantage of these?
[14:16]
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's always, as a, from a producerial standpoint,
[14:21]
it's always a consideration.
[14:22]
That's how movies get made.
[14:23]
I think you're also going to see, I mean, there's talks of a national of a federal incentive
[14:28]
in the US and there are tax shelters here that are in place that are difficult at times to
[14:34]
access.
[14:35]
I've been lucky enough to get them a couple of times, but it was, it used to be one eight one.
[14:40]
Now I think it's one six eight, or something like that.
[14:43]
And these are, these are, in my opinion, the only way these movies get made in the US at
[14:48]
us, at a certain price.
[14:49]
Yeah.
[14:50]
They still make a very small movie in the States and get away with it being done, you know,
[14:57]
for a price.
[14:58]
But the other thing is to look at like places like New York, New Jersey, who I think
[15:02]
are doing it right.
[15:04]
And, you know, and other jurisdictions in the States and then see how you can marry that
[15:10]
to the federal incentive.
[15:11]
And if we get a federal, the tax, the tax incentive, I should say, but if you can get
[15:16]
a federal incentive, then there'll be a gold rush back to the US, I believe, in production.
[15:20]
Yeah.
[15:21]
I think that's the key.
[15:22]
It's like we, all the other countries have some, you know, most of the big players have
[15:26]
some sort of incentive, right?
[15:28]
We do as well, but to get some sort of maybe some city federal program.
[15:31]
I mean, it was just, no one would go overseas, right?
[15:34]
You're thinking, hey, I got a shoot in the canary in Canada.
[15:36]
We talk about this all the time and we're piecing together our projects, right?
[15:39]
Where to shoot.
[15:41]
But if it was easier and more, I'd been tajous here while I leave, right?
[15:47]
It's easier for the crews and the cast and so I completely agree.
[15:51]
I think that'd be fantastic.
[15:54]
What do you think the single biggest thing of filmmakers are getting wrong about today's
[15:59]
market?
[16:00]
I mean, I don't know.
[16:01]
I can't speak to all filmmakers, but I think you've just got it.
[16:04]
Like you've got a seize on this.
[16:07]
There's no barrier for entry right now.
[16:08]
You can make an amazing movie.
[16:10]
You can look at Sean Baker's career, one of his first films as Tangerine, right?
[16:16]
That's Shot on an iPhone.
[16:17]
It's one of three films that was submitted to Sundance Shot on an iPhone.
[16:20]
It gets in, sells for what?
[16:22]
A million bucks.
[16:23]
And then goes on to do great success.
[16:26]
His second film gets nominated for an Oscar and we all know what happened with the Nora.
[16:30]
So I think you've got to look at like how you marry really original storytelling to an
[16:36]
industry now that is like from a technical standpoint, there's no barrier for entry.
[16:41]
You can make really amazing films with, you know, with pro-sumer equipment and anything
[16:48]
you can get your hands on.
[16:49]
So I think the mistake would be to follow a trend because as soon as everybody's talking
[16:55]
about horror or whatever genre they're talking about, by the time it's in the zeitgeist,
[16:59]
it's already too late.
[17:00]
It's already saturated.
[17:01]
So you have to kind of be true to yourself and to what storytelling is personal to you.
[17:08]
If I was coming out of film school, I'd be like, you know, you have an embarrassment
[17:12]
of opportunity right now to hone your craft and find your voice as a storytelling as a
[17:19]
filmmaker.
[17:20]
You have all these outlets, whether it be Instagram or YouTube or whatever you have to kind
[17:27]
of find your voice and make short content that builds your skill, it's a craft.
[17:33]
And you learn how to write by writing and you direct by directing.
[17:39]
But I hear these all the time from filmmakers, right?
[17:42]
The big ones, Sam Raimi was hard-browns many years ago.
[17:45]
Like, oh, you know, you have no excuse.
[17:46]
Go film, go film it.
[17:47]
Which I totally agree.
[17:48]
But let's just be very frank here about costs.
[17:54]
Because some of these filmmakers who made their first films, if you adjust for a
[17:58]
flation, you're talking 50, you $100,000 in today's, today's climate.
[18:03]
Do you recommend someone spending, you know, $100,000, not a lot when we're talking about
[18:09]
what we do on a daily basis?
[18:11]
But do you think that there's a difference, let's say, if they're going to go for broke,
[18:16]
right?
[18:17]
They're like, you know what?
[18:18]
I believe in the screenplay.
[18:19]
I'm putting everything on the line.
[18:20]
Like Kevin Smith did, credit card debt, whatever.
[18:21]
$100,000 film.
[18:23]
Now, or do you think in today's market, because you're seeing buyers all the time, could
[18:28]
they do something equally as potent for them in their career for like 10,000?
[18:35]
Or do you think, you know, we talk about budgets all the time when there's a threshold
[18:41]
of, no, we got to make it for three, we got to make it for five.
[18:44]
Do you think there's a big difference here from a $10,000 feature?
[18:47]
Let's just say $100,000 feature in the market to sell and recoup to keep their careers
[18:51]
going.
[18:52]
I mean, I come from a world where I started my career in big studio movies and I just
[18:59]
think you can make anecdotally.
[19:02]
You make Titanic for $200 million or you can make it for $2 million.
[19:05]
You got to know which version of that story you're telling.
[19:08]
I think there is, you know, we grew up, or I grew up out of film school in the 90s, which
[19:15]
was the kind of golden era of independent films.
[19:18]
All the things you're talking about, whether it be clerks or El Mariathe or...
[19:22]
Brothers McMollan party girl.
[19:24]
I mean, all of it, right?
[19:28]
Sex lies and videotape.
[19:29]
These movies that felt like very, like kind of, you know, that were, that were kind of
[19:36]
willed into existence by themselves.
[19:38]
Yeah.
[19:39]
I think there's absolutely those opportunity for that.
[19:41]
But I think on the other side of having this access technology, I think you've got to
[19:47]
find your voice and you've got to become proficient at what you're doing before you dive
[19:51]
into a feature.
[19:52]
So, there's no reason that young filmmakers shouldn't be making two short films a year.
[19:57]
And like just, or more than that, right?
[20:00]
And I have filmmakers friends that there's, there are these film festivals that are like
[20:03]
one minute film festivals that, that these films are, you know, that take all these films
[20:08]
and they're super fun.
[20:10]
You've just got to kind of get your team together and make these short films and find your craft.
[20:15]
Once you're on that side of it and you're making your 50 or 10 or $100,000 feature, you
[20:20]
also have to now, in the current environment, because distribution is so broken, especially
[20:27]
in the United States, in part because of all the things we're talking about in the contraction
[20:30]
and streamers, et cetera, you have to become a distributor as well.
[20:35]
And there are, yes.
[20:36]
So many success stories about filmmakers that self distribute their films and have these
[20:40]
filmmakers driven release strategies that they take a road show with their movie and they
[20:45]
actually make money and they do well and they're out there.
[20:48]
And I think you've got to look, if you're making a movie for $100,000, or $100,000, your
[20:52]
chance of breaking out is, you know, is so tiny that you have to figure out how you're
[21:01]
going to take your movie out.
[21:02]
Like, let's say 1% of films, if you look at fun dances, entrance as a kind of barometer
[21:09]
of how many independent films are being made, well, 0.1% of those get distribution.
[21:14]
That's sudden dance.
[21:15]
That's the biggest, that's the biggest, most important US festival and it's still tiny.
[21:21]
So you just have to look at different ways to distribute your movie and there's so many,
[21:25]
there's so much support now for self distribution that you can do that.
[21:29]
And again, if it's a passionate, important film to you, you'll find a way.
[21:34]
I love that.
[21:35]
And I want to harp on that a little bit more just to really drive home the point of distribution
[21:38]
for filmmakers because if it's your money, you don't, you know, let's just say it's
[21:44]
your money, you don't mind if you take a bath, so to speak.
[21:46]
But if you're getting investor money or friends of fail, you want to pay them back because
[21:49]
you want to snowball your career, right?
[21:51]
You want to get the $20,000 feature that you self distribute and make your money back
[21:56]
plus to then now turn that $20,000 into $100,000 feature for your next one and keep building.
[22:02]
I think there is not a responsibility to the investor, but I hear filmmakers all the
[22:06]
time who were coming up in the 90s say, I wanted to make sure I paid back my investors
[22:10]
because I think they knew that they were going to go to them at some point for their next
[22:14]
feature and you keep going and going and going.
[22:16]
And I think the distribution part of what you're isolating here is super important.
[22:22]
It's that you have to, it's no longer just making your great film.
[22:26]
You do have to kind of be the businessman or person as well to get that film going.
[22:31]
Do you kind of agree with that sentiment or?
[22:33]
100%. I mean, I think at the level at that level of entrance, you're going to live three
[22:38]
lives.
[22:39]
You're going to live the first life of getting your movie made, right?
[22:42]
Getting the script together, putting the creative package together, finding the financing
[22:46]
and making the movie.
[22:47]
And that's number one.
[22:48]
Number two is making the movie, which feels like this, you know, this eternal process of
[22:55]
financing, shooting it, editing it, finishing the movie, and that's a whole life.
[23:00]
And then afterwards, if you are not one of the fortunate ones that gets into one of the
[23:04]
top five festivals and that movie pops and gets distribution, guess what?
[23:08]
You're going to be destroyed.
[23:09]
You're going to figure out how to be a distributor and being a distributor is a completely different
[23:12]
skill set than being a filmmaker.
[23:15]
You have to familiarize yourself with the deals and how film distribution works and how
[23:20]
you, you know, release things and communities.
[23:23]
I just got an amazing film that won this documentary that won all these awards and it is such
[23:28]
insanely tough material.
[23:30]
And I'm talking to the producer who's one two, I'm sorry, I've been nominated for two
[23:34]
Oscars and talking about and he's struggling to find distribution for this amazing movie.
[23:40]
And we're talking about, okay, well, you should probably do an affinity kind of marketing
[23:43]
plan and do a filmmaker driven theatrical in the US as a as a roadshow.
[23:48]
And I think in the same way a Marvel movie is eventized and is a huge thing.
[23:53]
I think we have to look from through the independent, through the independent lens of doing
[23:57]
the same thing for independent films.
[23:59]
If your film is, you know, is music themed, then it's figuring out how you can tie a music
[24:04]
component to the release and do this or if it's, if there's an impact angle and it's about
[24:09]
a social issue, you find out how you can use that tool and get more awareness for your
[24:17]
film.
[24:18]
So, so would it be fair to say that what separates filmmakers who have careers from those
[24:24]
who are stuck now is the distribution angle or do you think there's something more than
[24:28]
that?
[24:29]
I just think you can't, there's a great, I think it was a keynote from South by Southwest,
[24:33]
one of the Duplas brothers and it's, it's well worth looking up on you too, but it's,
[24:38]
it was basically the thesis was the Calvary's not coming, right?
[24:43]
Nobody's coming to rescue you in independent film.
[24:46]
You are, it is independent film is not independent film.
[24:49]
It is dependent film.
[24:50]
You're dependent on everything.
[24:51]
I love that.
[24:52]
And.
[24:53]
And.
[24:54]
And.
[24:55]
And film everyone.
[24:56]
It's not independent.
[24:57]
You should know, you should make a t-shirt.
[24:59]
It's in a, it's in a textbook at Loyal Marymount that I was quoted.
[25:03]
So, that is, that is something I say all the time.
[25:07]
I think you, you watch that, you know, watch that speech because I think it's really good.
[25:11]
And looking at the Duplas brothers is such a good like trajectory to follow.
[25:16]
These guys made a movie that no, I don't think anybody's seen.
[25:19]
They did some tiny movie that didn't work.
[25:21]
And then they went and made Puff Feature for $15,000, right?
[25:26]
And they basically kicked off this whole mumble core movement of making these films where
[25:30]
the crew can never number the cast.
[25:33]
And they were just really character.
[25:35]
And they, and they marketed, I remember it went to Netflix and I think the year that they
[25:39]
made Puff Feature, they were the second most streamed movie on Netflix.
[25:43]
And they did this campaign in Austin where they promoted the movie almost like an indie
[25:49]
band, right?
[25:50]
Like they promoted it almost like a music thing.
[25:52]
And they, they, they kind of built their own, again, built their own audience.
[25:57]
All of a sudden they became this brand for films like, you know, for, for Hannah takes
[26:03]
the stairs and like all these cool little indie movies, right?
[26:07]
Francis Ha, like all these like really end to make character driven films.
[26:12]
So I think you just have to take control.
[26:14]
And they just say this great thing where they, they're like, we don't take meetings.
[26:18]
We just want to make movies, right?
[26:20]
So they would not kind of waste their time waiting for the industry to help them.
[26:24]
They just help themselves.
[26:25]
And I think that's a huge lesson right now is that, the devil is not coming.
[26:29]
No one's going to come and save you.
[26:32]
You have to save yourself.
[26:33]
And the best way you can do that is to, is to be great is to find your voice, make amazing
[26:39]
short films before you make your first feature.
[26:42]
And then if your feature is worthy, you're going to get behind it and you're going to find
[26:46]
an audience for it.
[26:47]
Yeah.
[26:48]
And I heard a similar, you know, saying where someone told me once a producer, no one
[26:54]
wants to make your movie, right?
[26:55]
Nobody wants to make your movie.
[26:56]
Like you've got to go out and make it yourself.
[26:58]
So I think there's something about, you know, pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and
[27:02]
going to make it.
[27:03]
Um, I also think too, when we mention these lower budget movies that hit them out of the
[27:09]
park, people want to see a film for $20,000 that catches fire or buzz.
[27:14]
And then I want to see like, wow, someone made it for 20.
[27:16]
Like it's almost, I don't say it's boy oristic, but they want to see, like obsession.
[27:21]
Everyone's talking about how it's under a million dollars.
[27:23]
I feel that people want to see that just to see how something gets made for $750, right?
[27:29]
They were for $10,000, $15,000.
[27:31]
I remember 10 years ago, plus there was an Anton Yelchin in the Jennifer Lawrence romance
[27:37]
movie was made for $120,000.
[27:40]
It's sold at Sundance for big bucks.
[27:42]
People like to see taking a low budget, I find it like making it work because they can
[27:48]
think to themselves, wow, I can do that towards within my reach.
[27:51]
You know, if we start talking about $10,000,000 movie, it's like, I'm never going to get
[27:54]
that money.
[27:55]
But hey, I can do a movie for, you know, like the Duplas for $15,000, maybe now today
[27:58]
for Mark and inflation, $40,000.
[27:59]
Like, hey, I can maybe do that.
[28:02]
Um, I think that's like you just said, but you got to go out and sharpen your skills
[28:07]
as a filmmaker like shoot shorts.
[28:09]
If you know, if you want to write, right, you got to like, you got to do it all because
[28:11]
that eventually your time, you will get your opportunity at some point to make a feature
[28:16]
if you build your skillset.
[28:17]
Michael Browey, thank you so much, my friend.
[28:20]
You're wonderful as always.
[28:21]
And, you know, embracing us and partying with your knowledge.
[28:24]
We'll have you on again soon.
[28:26]
Really appreciate it.
[28:27]
My pleasure.
[28:28]
Thank you so much for having me.
[28:29]
If you got something out of today's podcast, please share it with your filmmaking and screen
[28:33]
running community and hit subscribe.
[28:35]
It genuinely helps us keep making these.
[28:37]
We need them.
[28:38]
And we'll see you in the next one.
