The Iceberg Theory of Screenwriting and How Great Screenwriters Use Subtext | Kinolime Podcast Ep 44
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Hosted byDanny Murray, John Schramm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyEngsI6_9Ehttps://www.youtube.com/embed/fyEngsI6_9E
Show Notes
Hemingway's Iceberg Theory is one of the most talked-about screenwriting concepts out there, but what does it actually look like on the page? Danny and John break down the theory of omission and what it means for your screenplay: how to write subtext into dialogue, why your character's backstory shapes every scene even when it's never stated, and how restraint creates more tension than anything you could put on the nose.
Full Transcript
[00:00]
It's like they're talking like whatever they're saying, whatever is actually happening.
[00:05]
You're right.
[00:05]
Listening to matters.
[00:06]
You just know like what they're trying to get.
[00:08]
It's like the most horrifying, tense scene you'll ever feel.
[00:19]
We're good.
[00:20]
All right, so like...
[00:22]
I know where to start, Tom.
[00:23]
Sit down.
[00:24]
Sit down. We're rolling. Sit down, Tom.
[00:25]
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Keenaline podcast.
[00:28]
I'm John Schram here today.
[00:30]
As always, I don't want to call you like a sidekick because you're not a sidekick.
[00:36]
Oh, thanks so much. I've been promoted from...
[00:39]
What am I co?
[00:40]
I don't know. Like, you know, like riding in like the little motorcycle,
[00:43]
you're like an old sidekick.
[00:44]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Robin.
[00:45]
Yeah, you're Robin.
[00:46]
I've always wanted one of those really badly.
[00:48]
Yeah.
[00:48]
They do exist.
[00:49]
You can be a little sidequiet.
[00:50]
I've seen them once so long.
[00:51]
But I can't stop laughing because I look at your left mic.
[00:54]
It just looks like it's going to drill into your neck.
[00:56]
It is.
[00:57]
I don't know.
[00:57]
I can't sit.
[00:58]
No, no, no, no, no.
[00:58]
Don't go down.
[00:59]
It's hitting against your...
[01:01]
Your...
[01:01]
Your...
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I don't know.
[01:03]
Like, your j-cruise sweater.
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I look cool. Yeah.
[01:04]
Uh, we have a very...
[01:06]
Heady podcast today.
[01:08]
So I want everyone to get a cup of coffee and espresso shot.
[01:11]
I just had my...
[01:12]
And it's not here at Ginger Shot to wake me up here because
[01:15]
we're getting this like a really...
[01:17]
theoretical screenwriting advice today.
[01:20]
This is our tenant episode.
[01:21]
This is our tenant.
[01:22]
This is tenant of the Keenaline podcast.
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We're going to talk about icebergs.
[01:27]
So I don't know if y'all heard of the iceberg theory.
[01:30]
I'm going to let Danny explain it.
[01:33]
Yeah, it's essentially a writing theory
[01:36]
devised by Ernest...
[01:37]
Ernest...
[01:37]
Ernest...
[01:38]
Ernest Hemingway.
[01:40]
It's also called the Theory of omission.
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I'll just explain it with a one sentence quote
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that I think says it all without really saying it,
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just like what this theory is.
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Which is...
[01:52]
The dignity of the movement of an iceberg
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is due to only one eighth of it being above water.
[01:58]
So the whole episode today is going to be what that means for your story
[02:02]
and writing with theme.
[02:03]
When we were chatting about what to talk about,
[02:05]
we have our deadline approaching for the screenplay submission
[02:09]
for our third annual script screen podcast.
[02:12]
We're thinking like what could really help people
[02:14]
and just screenwriting thoughts in general.
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And I remember, I don't know,
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I don't know if you do this, but on Instagram or anywhere.
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If I see a really interesting...
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I don't know, it's not even a meme.
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It's like someone makes a post with a screenwriting advice,
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with Christopher Nolan, you know, on the background
[02:30]
and someone's...
[02:30]
I love those.
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It wasn't said by him either.
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It wasn't said by him, but I just love that.
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And I just remember getting this year's ago,
[02:36]
this iceberg and Hemingway's quote.
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And how I interpreted this was,
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above the water you have the tip of the iceberg,
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right, the thing that's sunk with Titanic,
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but underneath is this massive, giant iceberg that's floating.
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And so I view that as like your story,
[02:54]
your surface level, the plot, the characters,
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dialogue is all top, but really what makes a great movie to me
[02:59]
is what's underneath, the things that are not said.
[03:02]
And I find that in current filmmaking
[03:07]
or just stuff that we read, it's like, again,
[03:10]
it's a situation, it's the plot,
[03:12]
but it's lacking like, what is this really about?
[03:14]
And this is something that I had to learn as a screenwriter.
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So I'm gonna, you know, have a little confession here.
[03:21]
You know, no, when I was writing professionally,
[03:25]
where I struggled as a writer was to find out what it was about.
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So I came up with great plots and premise and characters,
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but like really, what are we trying to say here?
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And where I learned this from,
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while working with Oliver Stone on a movie for him was,
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everything he does is intentionally about something.
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He wants to tell not just the story,
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he wants to tell you to listen on life.
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And I just love that in a filmmaker.
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Like they have a view on life
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and that permeates through the entire story.
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Yeah, it's beautiful.
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The thing that I think about a lot,
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when it comes to this specifically is,
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you know, when I watch a great movie with friends at a theater,
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the really great ones, we will talk for hours
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about the movie afterwards,
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without even really bringing up anything
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that happened in the movie.
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I think like when you get that, right?
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Like when the theme is so clear
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without ever truly being stated
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that every person can have their own interpretation of it
[04:30]
and talk with like a lot of soul,
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like it really did connect with them.
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You know, it's the type of movie that sticks with you
[04:37]
without inherently having to remember the movie.
[04:40]
Yeah, right.
[04:41]
And part of that theory of omission that Danny mentioned before
[04:43]
is that you should be able to strip away so much dialogue
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and aspects of your story that you as the writer
[04:51]
know your world so well,
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that every move your character makes,
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every little thing has meaning
[04:56]
and subliminal purpose that influences you as a reader
[05:00]
and puts you in that mode.
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I'm like really tired talking about like my,
[05:03]
I'm just like this, my brain's working over looked so,
[05:06]
you guys are probably thinking like,
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what the hell, guys, what are you speaking like?
[05:09]
Divers you.
[05:10]
So we're gonna break it down here.
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I'm gonna start with a tip that I have
[05:14]
that I really like to talk about.
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It's know your backstory, but don't show it.
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And it sounds so easy to be like,
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oh yeah, of course, show your backstory,
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but if you really know your backstory,
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if you really know your characters
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and their internal wounds and what they're struggling with,
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it will per me.
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It's like a subconscious thing you can't help as a writer.
[05:36]
It will come out from here onto the page,
[05:39]
onto three fingers, you know.
[05:41]
And really make those characters make choices
[05:44]
that are subconscious.
[05:45]
And I think that's,
[05:47]
Cormac McCarthy who's my favorite author, RIP.
[05:51]
He would always talk about trying to write in a zone
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where it just would be second nature.
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Just it was just porn out of them.
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It's like this gear that you don't know about.
[06:01]
And I think that's knowing your backstory.
[06:02]
Like you really should think about right-of-back story,
[06:05]
know your internal wound for your protagonist.
[06:09]
What are they afraid of?
[06:10]
What are they doing?
[06:11]
But don't necessarily show it.
[06:13]
Does that make sense?
[06:14]
Yeah, it's why I love Twin Peaks, right?
[06:16]
Like I actually have a great David Lynch quote about all of this
[06:20]
because like why people love David Lynch so much?
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I think specifically is like his films are uncanny
[06:26]
and they're crazy and they're creative,
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but like he always said,
[06:31]
like you can't have a bad interpretation
[06:33]
or a wrong interpretation of one of his films.
[06:35]
There's so many layers of emotion and thought
[06:38]
and just, you know,
[06:39]
they're kind of like open tables for you to take
[06:41]
whatever you want from them.
[06:43]
Well, he would also talk,
[06:44]
he would go into the transcendental meditation,
[06:45]
he would talk about the fish and the sea
[06:48]
and you know, your ideas and he was great.
[06:50]
But before I move on from this topic,
[06:52]
I just want to give a piece of advice that I think
[06:54]
or an exercise is to create a,
[06:58]
give your character a secret.
[07:00]
Like, but don't reveal it.
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Like what is their, what's a secret that they have
[07:04]
that is interesting to you into the character?
[07:06]
But like don't reveal it.
[07:07]
Like just look, what's something that they have?
[07:09]
When you're writing, think of a really awesome secret
[07:12]
and just keep it in your head.
[07:13]
So when you do write, it will come out
[07:15]
but you don't ever reveal it.
[07:17]
So that was a pretty cool idea.
[07:18]
It was trying out.
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A hundred percent.
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You have somebody's secret.
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Give your, it's like what Greta Gerogold says.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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She's like, all my characters need like a want and need.
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And a secret.
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And a secret.
[07:30]
And it was not just thinking of that.
[07:31]
Yeah.
[07:32]
And it's a beautiful thing.
[07:34]
And then I think like in general, right?
[07:35]
Cause what we've done so far is we haven't really honed in
[07:38]
anything specific in terms of film for this.
[07:41]
But what all of this is kind of in essence,
[07:44]
what we're trying to lay out right now
[07:46]
before we get into is you want to be able to essentially
[07:50]
lay the groundwork to have a strong of a dramatic
[07:54]
or central argument as you possibly can
[07:56]
without beating your audience over the head with it.
[07:59]
You want to lead them as subtly as you can
[08:03]
to this same kind of amazing realization you had
[08:07]
that thrusted you to write this story.
[08:09]
John, is there any film specifically that you think
[08:13]
kind of uses a mission or like I guess plays
[08:17]
with these kind of frameworks?
[08:20]
In a way that's stuck with you.
[08:21]
Well, I mean, again, I brought up Korn with Karthi
[08:24]
and no country for old men,
[08:26]
even though he wrote the book,
[08:27]
but the Korn brothers interpreted and created that
[08:31]
living thing, which is one of my favorite movies of all time.
[08:33]
I mean, yeah, that is a very subtle film
[08:36]
where not a lot is going on in terms of dialogue.
[08:40]
And that's like something that I think is super important
[08:43]
as another tip that I'd like to talk about.
[08:45]
And we'll get back into your films here
[08:46]
just because I want to use that as like,
[08:48]
stop explaining your feelings.
[08:50]
Like we read all the time like, you know,
[08:53]
I feel this way and you did this because of that
[08:56]
and like back in the day, like no, like stop explaining it.
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I really think it's important as an exercise
[09:01]
to write your scenes without any dialogue.
[09:05]
Like really try and convey the emotion
[09:08]
through character action.
[09:10]
Of course you need dialogue.
[09:11]
I'm not saying you don't.
[09:12]
Like look at, you know, what's his face?
[09:15]
Why am I blanking?
[09:16]
Aaron Sorkin, dialogue machine.
[09:18]
But like let's start with the action and purpose first.
[09:22]
Hitchcock would do that all the time.
[09:23]
He might have screenplays, the last draft he'd had
[09:26]
in the dialogue.
[09:27]
Well, let's try without overly explaining the feelings.
[09:30]
And this is something that like I,
[09:32]
trial the time is zero-dialogsy.
[09:34]
Try it out, see what happens.
[09:36]
Maybe something will come about.
[09:37]
Like they're gonna just like pick up a glass
[09:39]
and fucking throw it against the wall.
[09:40]
I don't know, that's your character.
[09:41]
That's what comes to life.
[09:42]
But if you have the safety of the dialogue,
[09:45]
it's, you just get, it's not that it's lazy.
[09:47]
It just, I think it pulls you back as a writer.
[09:50]
It really does block the creative juices from coming out.
[09:53]
Like make them make physical choices.
[09:56]
Yeah, and it's also kind of,
[09:57]
I love that you said that,
[09:59]
because it's much harder to have characters make
[10:03]
defining choices when they're talking.
[10:05]
Sure. You still can, but it's very difficult.
[10:08]
It's very difficult.
[10:09]
And also, just in general,
[10:11]
to kind of like add on to that point,
[10:14]
like being able to have a character that evokes emotion
[10:18]
and is a real living, breathing person
[10:22]
that you can empathize with without dialogue,
[10:25]
that's a far more intriguing role most of the time
[10:28]
for potential actors or directors
[10:30]
that you're going out to with us,
[10:32]
then just someone who you learn about from what this is.
[10:35]
Again, there are certain writers that are such lyricists
[10:39]
like the Aaron Sorkins, right?
[10:41]
That know just, everything they do is poetic and sings
[10:44]
and moves.
[10:45]
So as an actor, you want to say the Shakespearean words,
[10:47]
but that's an ungodly, otherworldly talent.
[10:51]
But for, yeah, most part, yeah.
[10:53]
They want to see what is a character doing,
[10:55]
like the contradictions and how do they, you know, go,
[10:58]
how do they move throughout a scene
[10:59]
that's something I took an acting class back in the day,
[11:01]
in college, in here in New York.
[11:04]
And it was just great to like, they would,
[11:06]
have you just like wake up in the morning
[11:07]
and just walk around your apartment.
[11:09]
And it was like, yeah, like,
[11:09]
what are you going to do in that character?
[11:11]
Like it's really fascinating to do
[11:13]
and something that I really feel very strongly about
[11:17]
is if your character is saying something on the nose,
[11:20]
like just try cutting it, see what you can do without it.
[11:23]
But I would try, I'd be really fun.
[11:25]
Right up to three, four or five page scene,
[11:27]
zero dialogue.
[11:28]
See what comes out, it's gonna be awesome.
[11:30]
100%.
[11:31]
But so that's my movie, No Country of the,
[11:33]
and why I pick that film is because of the minimal dialogue
[11:36]
and how they're just moving throughout scenes
[11:38]
and you're always, the converse
[11:40]
are always catching Josh Brown's eye line
[11:41]
and, you know, a Javier Bardem's character
[11:43]
and what they do, it's just so, it's so subdued,
[11:48]
but it says so much.
[11:49]
Yeah, it's like, you know, I always think about
[11:52]
with that film, it evoked, and I feel like
[11:57]
these scenes are kind of this theory at its best.
[12:00]
It's like the scene where, you know,
[12:05]
the coin flip in the gas station.
[12:06]
Yeah.
[12:08]
Not much has said, there isn't inherently
[12:11]
a deliberate, like, you know,
[12:15]
understanding of what the stakes are
[12:16]
for the, you know, the gas station attendant,
[12:19]
but like your mind just races of like, you know,
[12:22]
what is this monster gonna do to this character?
[12:26]
I would say there is stuff said
[12:27]
because it is like a philosophical debate,
[12:29]
but I know what you're saying.
[12:30]
It's like, he's just getting gas.
[12:32]
Yep.
[12:33]
And somebody says something to him the wrong way,
[12:35]
and all of a sudden he goes from,
[12:37]
I'm, I was gonna let this guy live,
[12:38]
but now I'm gonna juggle with your life.
[12:40]
And that guy, the coin flip moment is so important
[12:44]
because it reveals the antagonist view on life
[12:47]
and how he views, you know, I'm just,
[12:49]
things are by chance, I'm gonna leave it up
[12:51]
to a coin flip to whether I'm gonna take your life or not,
[12:53]
which is really sick, but also like,
[12:54]
I kinda get it, you know, if you're that sick.
[12:56]
So it's a great example of that.
[12:59]
And that's something that we go to our third,
[13:02]
so we have, you're building a backstory, right?
[13:03]
That's our first tip.
[13:05]
Build your backstory, then forget about it
[13:06]
because it's gonna subliminally affect you as a writer
[13:09]
and help influence you in your writing.
[13:11]
The second part is try now,
[13:12]
now that you know your backstory,
[13:13]
try to write stuff without dialogue.
[13:16]
Have your characters move through the scenes,
[13:17]
but now let's focus on helping build dialogue
[13:20]
because you brought up the scene in no country,
[13:22]
which has dialogue.
[13:23]
It's subtext.
[13:24]
And that is so important, is we forget,
[13:28]
and you know, something that I have to be reminded
[13:30]
of is like how to write subtext.
[13:32]
And subtext is an iceberg, other metaphors,
[13:35]
like, you know, the subtext, what you're saying is like,
[13:38]
I wanna go, I wanna go to the supermarket,
[13:41]
but the subtext is I'm pissed at you
[13:43]
because you were watching, you know,
[13:46]
I don't know, the Dodgers till three in the morning.
[13:48]
Why would anyone be angry about that?
[13:51]
That's not-
[13:52]
I know, but it's like, you wanna try and rewrite your scene
[13:55]
without saying what you actually are trying to say.
[13:58]
It sounds hard, and it's really tough,
[14:01]
but if you can master that subtext,
[14:03]
well, that blows us away every time we were to screenplay.
[14:05]
100%.
[14:06]
It's, you know, in that scene, it's great.
[14:10]
It's also what's so incredible about,
[14:12]
I always come back to, because it's just such a great example
[14:16]
of this theory at play, like at its best,
[14:18]
is like the zodiac basements scene, right?
[14:21]
It's like they're talking, like whatever they're saying,
[14:24]
whatever is actually happening.
[14:26]
You're not listening to matters.
[14:28]
You just know like what they're trying to get.
[14:30]
It's like the most horrifying,
[14:31]
tense scene you'll ever feel,
[14:33]
and that's not because of anything that's really on the page
[14:37]
or anything on the screen, it's just what your mind makes of it.
[14:41]
Yeah, and I think that's, again, when we talk about theory
[14:43]
of omission, is pulling back, like giving the audience
[14:48]
the ability to sit in that horror in that moment,
[14:52]
and through the subtext, which is pulling back,
[14:55]
because again, we're not being overt about it.
[14:56]
We're not saying this is what, you know,
[14:59]
on the nose dialogue, we're pulling back
[15:01]
and they're talking about basement plans
[15:03]
or whatever, something that I forget the scene.
[15:06]
But you just know like Jake thing,
[15:08]
Jake doesn't know he might be in the killer's house,
[15:10]
and there's a moment in the scene where he's like,
[15:12]
oh shit, this is him in the basement.
[15:15]
Nothing has ever said violent or dangerous,
[15:19]
but you feel it.
[15:21]
And that is like the theory of omission,
[15:22]
the writer knew the characters wants,
[15:26]
Jake had a want to find who the killer was,
[15:28]
and put them in a situation and I just let the fireworks go.
[15:31]
100%.
[15:31]
It's not something that like you have to objectively do
[15:35]
in like every scene or every piece of work you make,
[15:38]
but like, again, if you have characters
[15:40]
that you want to bake in subtext and have be restrained,
[15:44]
yeah.
[15:46]
I think Zodiac, I think no country,
[15:48]
these are great movies kind of watch,
[15:49]
like watch how that restraint bubbles as the movie goes along.
[15:54]
And you know, at a certain point,
[15:55]
like you're essentially watching something in your head
[15:59]
that is completely different than what's on the screen.
[16:01]
Sure, and an exercise you can do at home is,
[16:05]
again, I'll give you an example to maybe play with,
[16:07]
is have two people arguing over dinner about the dinner,
[16:11]
but they're really arguing about a topic that's important.
[16:13]
You'll say abortion or something very hot topic.
[16:19]
Push it, like have them like,
[16:20]
you know, I don't want them as potatoes and it sounds silly
[16:24]
because you're like, well, I'm just saying what you mean,
[16:25]
but that's the thing is we never say what we mean.
[16:28]
Like how do you handle a fight with your friend
[16:30]
or your parents or your significant other?
[16:34]
You're never saying to them what you feel.
[16:37]
You're saying about like, oh, you don't bring out
[16:38]
the laundry or you do this and that, whatever it is.
[16:41]
But it's always something deeper.
[16:43]
So try and pick a scene and force yourself
[16:46]
to never talk about the actual issue,
[16:50]
but talk about what they're doing in the moment.
[16:52]
Again, I pick a dinner scene
[16:53]
because I always think that's the easiest
[16:54]
because there's so many things to use at your disposal.
[16:57]
But try that exercise and see what happens.
[16:59]
It'll train your muscle to think about subtext
[17:02]
in a different way.
[17:03]
Yeah.
[17:03]
You've ever had before.
[17:04]
Okay, actually just like my last quick thought
[17:06]
on this specifically is like another great way
[17:11]
that I think could also kind of reshape
[17:12]
how you think about this.
[17:14]
It doesn't always mean your characters
[17:16]
don't have to specifically talk.
[17:18]
It's more so about like have them talk as much
[17:21]
or like have a lack of dialogue, have a whole bunch
[17:24]
of dialogue, just make sure that whatever they're saying
[17:28]
isn't just a blanket thing that we could infer.
[17:31]
A great example of that is like
[17:33]
Preston Sturge's movies,
[17:35]
who are it's the Cohen Brothers favorite filmmaker.
[17:37]
All of his movies at this point are about a hundred years old.
[17:40]
But his character is just babbling, babbling, talking, talking, talking.
[17:44]
And it's hilarious, but like most of what they're saying
[17:48]
really doesn't have anything to do with the story.
[17:52]
But every one of his films almost,
[17:56]
that they kind of have like these needle drop moments
[17:58]
where a character will be babbling for minutes
[18:00]
and then just kind of state what they actually mean.
[18:03]
Sure.
[18:04]
And it almost feels like a,
[18:07]
it's I think best in the Palm Beach story.
[18:10]
The first 20 minutes that are a great example of this.
[18:12]
But it's a good exercise in seeing how you can make someone fall
[18:17]
in love with the character and know exactly who they are
[18:20]
without them actually saying anything about their wants.
[18:22]
And that's really cool.
[18:23]
So you can try it two different ways.
[18:25]
And then when we talk about scenes,
[18:27]
another tip we want to give you is that there should be, not should be.
[18:30]
But if you think about having a hidden argument in every scene,
[18:33]
it again, you're not just writing to move the plot forward.
[18:37]
I think that's something we see a lot is
[18:39]
people rush to get from point to plot point to plot point
[18:42]
to think to move their character through the story.
[18:46]
Now, like sit back, take a scene
[18:49]
and there should be a hidden argument.
[18:50]
What does each character want?
[18:52]
What is the intention and obstacle in that scene?
[18:56]
And what's your, like the hidden argument thematically?
[18:59]
She know, try again, take a scene like this, you know,
[19:02]
dinner scene about abortion.
[19:04]
Like what does they actually argue about?
[19:05]
Yes, they're arguing about abortion.
[19:07]
But what's the underlying iceberg to that scene?
[19:11]
Is it because Guy wants a baby and his wife doesn't?
[19:16]
Like there should be the hidden thematic argument,
[19:18]
which is larger when we go back to our first point
[19:21]
about knowing the back story, what do you, your protagonist want?
[19:23]
So in these scenes, think about what is your hidden argument?
[19:27]
Right, what is the scene?
[19:29]
I see it's about any movie.
[19:30]
What is the scene really about?
[19:31]
Yeah.
[19:32]
You know, when you make a movie, if you're going to like ask us
[19:34]
or two hours over lives, $50 to go see your film,
[19:37]
what are you saying about life?
[19:39]
What is it that this movie is really about?
[19:43]
And I bring up Oliver because his movies are so fantastic
[19:45]
and you look at Wall Street.
[19:47]
What is it really about?
[19:48]
It's about greed and capitalism, you know,
[19:50]
in an amazing, you know, Icarus flying too close
[19:53]
to the sun story.
[19:54]
And he purposely did that.
[19:55]
He wanted to talk about these themes and topics.
[19:58]
But because he knew his story so well,
[20:00]
everything permeated to the characters and to the setting.
[20:03]
And that's why that movie's, you know, 40 years later,
[20:06]
still pops to me.
[20:08]
And I think that kind of leads to something,
[20:11]
I was thinking about a lot while we're, you know,
[20:14]
I guess building how we are going to talk about this theory.
[20:17]
But it comes down to like, and I think like Craig,
[20:20]
amazing, like the script notes guys do a great job
[20:24]
of talking about this as well.
[20:26]
But like, you know, your film needs a really strong,
[20:29]
like central theme or dramatic argument, right?
[20:31]
And like, again, if you know exactly what that is,
[20:36]
you can bleed it in new ways into like every single scene
[20:39]
and character and encounter.
[20:41]
And I could talk to speak to that.
[20:42]
So it can't get dangerous,
[20:45]
because I think sometimes people want to lead with,
[20:47]
I want, like, I don't think all of it
[20:49]
is like, I'm going to do movie about capitalism.
[20:51]
Yep.
[20:52]
I think he had characters in his mind.
[20:53]
So my opinion, take it for what it's worth is,
[20:56]
find your character of what you want, like that world.
[21:00]
And then I think when you really know them,
[21:02]
the theme will come out of it.
[21:03]
And then once you know that, you hit it hard.
[21:06]
Yeah.
[21:07]
So I was stuck on a screenplay.
[21:08]
I wrote this coming of age, you know, movie.
[21:11]
And it just wasn't cladding over to what they wanted.
[21:13]
And as soon as I figured out that the character,
[21:17]
the whole thematic argument was about identity.
[21:20]
I put a post-it note right next to my laptop.
[21:22]
And I, that every scene, every action,
[21:25]
everything I could influenced was influenced that progression
[21:30]
and once I knew it was about identity,
[21:31]
I hammered the shit out of it.
[21:33]
And it became my best writing work that I, you know,
[21:36]
people always loved because it was about something deeper.
[21:39]
The iceberg was about identity.
[21:40]
And everything was about identity.
[21:42]
And then everyone starts arguing
[21:43]
in each scene about identity.
[21:45]
Right.
[21:46]
So I think it's okay not to know what you want to write yet.
[21:50]
If you have like, hey, I want to write a character
[21:51]
in the West 1880s, that's awesome.
[21:55]
Find out who that character is.
[21:56]
Once you find out that character's internal wounds,
[22:00]
hidden secrets, a theme will bubble up.
[22:02]
And then once you realize, oh, it's really about this,
[22:04]
then you hammer the shit out of it.
[22:06]
It's something I, I'm unsure if it's because
[22:09]
you're thinking of the film I talked to you about
[22:12]
when we were thinking about this.
[22:14]
I want to talk about an 1800s.
[22:16]
Go, but I see it's a bliminally influenced me go.
[22:20]
A great example of a filmmaker who just operates
[22:23]
with restraint and uses a mission
[22:26]
in an incredible way is Kelly Reichart.
[22:29]
She has a film, it's her weirdest movie.
[22:31]
The first time I saw it is my least favorite of hers.
[22:34]
But I think it encapsulates the iceberg at its best,
[22:37]
which is again, what you can see,
[22:40]
if you're going into watch it,
[22:41]
is it is a western about people
[22:45]
adventuring through the organ trail.
[22:47]
But the film's dramatic argument is essentially,
[22:51]
it's a film about who you give power and trust to and why.
[22:56]
And it essentially subverts,
[22:58]
you know, myths every trope you would imagine in a western.
[23:02]
It has no exposition, it almost has no dialogue.
[23:06]
There's Native American characters that do not play
[23:09]
like they would in a neo-western or like they would
[23:12]
in a standard western.
[23:14]
And these characters speak and we don't even get
[23:18]
a box of their like dialogue, right?
[23:22]
Like we don't even translate their dialogue.
[23:24]
So it turns into a film you expect to be
[23:27]
this great adventure through the west.
[23:29]
And it turns into just this like really paranoid
[23:36]
and confused kind of like ambush of expansion.
[23:43]
Like are we expanding?
[23:45]
Are we dying?
[23:46]
Are we just lost?
[23:48]
And again, like it doesn't actually tell you any of this.
[23:52]
There's just so much kind of open space
[23:55]
and interpretation in every single character
[23:58]
and scene that it leaves you like I would be shocked
[24:04]
if someone sees an ending to this film
[24:07]
and has the same kind of answer of what happens next.
[24:09]
Yeah, and that is the beauty of knowing your world,
[24:12]
your characters, the wounds and just having that iceberg mission
[24:17]
moving it forward.
[24:18]
I'll give you a movie that's maybe less obscure,
[24:21]
but I watched recently and I was like, oh, less obscure.
[24:24]
You haven't seen this kind of record movie
[24:26]
that didn't even like go into theater.
[24:28]
But I watched recently the black stallion.
[24:31]
Have you ever seen them?
[24:32]
No, I've never seen them.
[24:33]
It's about a kid in a horse.
[24:35]
And it's like the probably the first hour
[24:37]
is probably the some of the best filmmaking.
[24:39]
I honestly have ever seen.
[24:40]
And there's so little dialogue.
[24:42]
It's about this boy who's on a ship and his like dad dies.
[24:46]
That's see like a bunch of people
[24:47]
took a passenger ship liner
[24:49]
and him and this horse get a ship wrecked on an island.
[24:54]
And it's their bond, but there's like no dialogue
[24:56]
and the director, I can't remember the director's name,
[24:58]
but fantastic.
[24:59]
I think he was like a first AD for Star Wars.
[25:02]
A new hope.
[25:03]
And it's all visual of like this horse and this kid
[25:07]
and they're bond and you're seeing a friendship
[25:09]
between an animal and a human, obviously with no dialogue,
[25:12]
but you are so invested
[25:14]
because they the director and the writer clearly knew
[25:18]
like what they wanted to accomplish through the characters.
[25:20]
So go watch the Black Style and I highly recommend it.
[25:23]
When you are now writing,
[25:24]
we're gonna give you a little checklist
[25:26]
so you can go through your screenplay.
[25:28]
I want you one to think about,
[25:30]
like we talked about in the beginning, your backstory.
[25:32]
Know your backstory, then just erase it.
[25:35]
You know, I mean, get it in you to your DNA,
[25:38]
but then get rid of it.
[25:40]
Second point is, does your protagonist have a clear
[25:44]
internal wound?
[25:45]
I think that is part of the backstory,
[25:47]
but I want you to really focus on that internal wound.
[25:49]
We can do a whole episode just on that.
[25:51]
But that will really drive what your character is running
[25:54]
from or afraid of, right, throughout the screenplay
[25:58]
and the story.
[26:00]
The third thing is are your scenes driven by behavior
[26:05]
or exposition?
[26:06]
Now that's a real good test when you go through your scenes.
[26:09]
Am I saying what, you know, they're saying
[26:12]
and feeling to move the story forward
[26:14]
or is it by behavior?
[26:16]
I think that's really important distinction.
[26:17]
I think using those exercises we talked about
[26:19]
will really help.
[26:20]
The fourth thing is, have you cut obvious exposition?
[26:24]
Right?
[26:24]
That's easy to do.
[26:25]
If they're saying what they're feeling, cut it.
[26:28]
Cut it.
[26:29]
Come up with something else, but cut it.
[26:31]
And the fifth thing, and it's escaping me at the moment.
[26:34]
I want to say emotional argument.
[26:35]
There we go.
[26:36]
So just each scene contained an underlying emotional argument.
[26:39]
So as you have your backstory and you go,
[26:42]
once you get to the scene level,
[26:44]
does each scene have its emotional argument?
[26:46]
And again, you don't want to be so analytical
[26:49]
and clinical about it, but it's all about these techniques
[26:53]
are to help you into a mind frame to start thinking
[26:55]
about your writing differently, how to level up.
[26:57]
Yeah, and look, what especially that last point
[27:01]
leads into, and I think it's what's actually exciting
[27:04]
about any form of writing, right?
[27:06]
Like all these steps kind of strip you down to like,
[27:09]
what do you have to say to the human condition?
[27:12]
Like what about your experience as a person?
[27:15]
Do you want to share?
[27:17]
And that's what's so exciting about being able to do this
[27:19]
well.
[27:20]
You see directors and writers, producers talk about all time.
[27:23]
You have a, I love Kevin Smith, he was on I think
[27:26]
Thiel von, they were talking about this in Kevin Smith's
[27:28]
like, your currency is your voice.
[27:30]
You've only lived your life.
[27:32]
You have a unique life, whether you think about it,
[27:34]
or believe it or not, you do.
[27:36]
Use those moments, and it doesn't have to be literal
[27:38]
like you're gonna do clerks, like that was his life.
[27:41]
Tarantino says he and uses his friends
[27:43]
and people he's met in his fictional stories.
[27:46]
So you've lived a life, like you use that.
[27:49]
And what motivates you, what like really bothers you,
[27:52]
what pisses you off, friend LeBault,
[27:53]
who we've had on the show, talks about all the time,
[27:55]
he would say write 50 things that fucking piss you off.
[27:59]
50 things that make you super happy.
[28:01]
You know, like that will help you find what you're trying
[28:04]
to say, because every great movie the author
[28:07]
is just trying to say something.
[28:09]
They are.
[28:10]
They are.
[28:11]
I mean, look, and oh, another,
[28:12]
oh, give your bonus tip that we talked about before,
[28:14]
is this could be fun, is write without intention.
[28:17]
It's a great exercise.
[28:19]
Create your character, get in front of the laptop,
[28:20]
and I'm gonna have, you know,
[28:22]
we'll call character Clark.
[28:23]
Clark is gonna go over here, he's gonna open the door.
[28:25]
Just for like a few hours, just have them play.
[28:28]
What does he do?
[28:29]
Does he do something fucked up?
[28:30]
And like, I don't know, again, throw glass at the wall.
[28:33]
Is he, does he kick a puppy?
[28:35]
You know what I'm saying?
[28:35]
Like, stuff will come out within you.
[28:37]
It's a really an exercise to get this shit in you
[28:40]
out on the page.
[28:42]
And that's where really the great writing will excel.
[28:45]
100% and then, you know, it just comes down to like,
[28:48]
whatever these like big visceral emotions you felt are,
[28:53]
like it's what's great about art.
[28:55]
Other people have felt them and they've gotten there
[28:58]
in a different way.
[28:59]
Yeah.
[29:00]
So like, again, if you can layer a subtext,
[29:04]
if you could write these, you know,
[29:06]
tragic, tortured characters,
[29:08]
which doesn't always have to be a drama, by the way.
[29:10]
You can be actually,
[29:11]
we've got action about action,
[29:12]
because that in a kid's movie, again,
[29:15]
you'll tap into something that will leave,
[29:19]
you know, whoever read or watched your movie
[29:22]
long after, you know, they actually remember the movie.
[29:26]
Well, Steve Dispelberg is a great example, right?
[29:28]
He, dare I say, make popcorn flicks,
[29:30]
but I mean that in the most positive way.
[29:32]
Yeah.
[29:34]
But it's about something, every movie's about something.
[29:36]
Always raise a lost arc about something, right?
[29:39]
So you can do it, just sit and play
[29:42]
and how to get what you want to say is also very difficult.
[29:45]
It's like, I talked to friends,
[29:46]
I have to play on the page,
[29:47]
Greta Gouraud, she'll write her first draft,
[29:49]
300 pages to find out what her story really is.
[29:52]
I can't tell you how to do it,
[29:54]
but these are some exercises you can do at home
[29:57]
that hopefully will bubble up.
[29:58]
And we want to hear from you, like, hit us up,
[30:00]
like did any of these techniques work?
[30:02]
Are there exercises we forgot that
[30:04]
or don't know about that maybe we could tell the audience
[30:07]
to not let us know?
[30:08]
Like what are some techniques that help you find your theme?
[30:11]
And some filmmakers like Tyka's,
[30:13]
like I find my theme in the editing room.
[30:15]
He's like, but that, so consciously he knows
[30:17]
what he's doing with his characters,
[30:19]
but he's gonna let the editor figure it out
[30:21]
when he ever films everything.
[30:22]
And that's also another technique.
[30:24]
But I would say like explore, the best part of writing
[30:28]
is, and you hear this from writers too,
[30:29]
is now that you've made it and you're getting paid,
[30:32]
you can't have fun anymore, it seems like.
[30:34]
They can't write their episodic screenplay
[30:37]
or everything, they don't like for spec anymore.
[30:40]
They're writing for a paycheck.
[30:41]
And I've heard writers talk, that bums them out.
[30:44]
They want to write their crazy sci-fi space opera,
[30:48]
but they can't, because they gotta pay the bills.
[30:50]
So you're at a place now, go write,
[30:53]
go have fun, explore, make your characters do stuff.
[30:56]
Yeah, and also, I was listening to Matt Johnson
[31:00]
who just wrote, you know, and directed Nirvana,
[31:02]
the show, the movie.
[31:05]
And like, he said something in a different way
[31:08]
that I had heard like Christopher Nolan say,
[31:10]
which is like a great way to actually learn
[31:12]
how to direct us and go to film school.
[31:14]
It's like, go to school for English, right?
[31:17]
And like, like, kind of tap into like, you know,
[31:19]
the, like, how, you know, different writing,
[31:24]
like, teaches you how to kind of look
[31:27]
and like point in the camera.
[31:28]
Like, and I do think that's important for writing.
[31:30]
It's like, what should we actually be focusing on emotionally?
[31:33]
Yeah.
[31:34]
And just whatever that is for you,
[31:36]
whether that's art or your fan, like, whatever it is,
[31:40]
that kind of focuses you emotionally,
[31:43]
lean into it, put it on the page, it'll be awesome.
[31:46]
That's our parting advice.
[31:47]
So we're super pumped.
[31:48]
We can't wait to hear from you again.
[31:49]
Hit us out in the comments, let us know what works for you,
[31:54]
what you liked from this.
[31:55]
Is there another exercise that we don't know about?
[31:57]
We want to hear from you, because we are definitely not
[31:59]
the smartest people in the room.
[32:00]
But thank you so much for listening.
[32:02]
I'm John Schram.
[32:03]
Danny Murray.
[32:04]
See you later and don't write exposition.
