What It Really Takes to Become a Working Screenwriter| Kinolime Podcast Ep 43

He's like walked to his mentor before he's.

He's a big walker.

Big walker.

Yeah, he says a man on any important mission

should walk to it.

He should not drive.

He should walk to it.

So I was like, all right,

I'm gonna follow his advice.

Hey, everybody, welcome to the KinoLine podcast.

Danny, this is all you're doing today.

Why don't you maybe you set us up on who we're interviewing?

Because we got like, this is, I'm like, so pumped.

Yeah, man.

Well, we're interviewing right here, Austin Kaladny.

Screenwriter for Deadman's Wire.

Oh, it's gonna run off the wall.

Deadman's Wire here.

Yeah, it's a pretty incredible story of how you got this movie made.

The production's incredible.

And your entire journey as a filmmaker and screenwriter

is really captivating.

We're gonna go over all of it.

How are you doing today, Matt?

I'm doing well.

It's a nice rainy day in LA.

I've got some very basic errands to do.

I'm gonna go over to the next one.

I'm gonna go over to the next one.

I'm gonna go over to the next one.

I've got some very basic errands to get through today.

But yeah, always excited to chat with fellow film lovers.

So yeah, honor to be on the platform.

Thanks for having me.

Austin, dude, by the way, congratulations on your first movie

getting produced with Gus Van Sant.

You cracked the code.

Share your secrets.

What did you do?

Did you sacrifice some sort of goat in the game?

In the game.

My credit score.

My credit score was definitely sacrificed in the process.

That was long thing.

Yeah, I've worked in film for over a decade now in varying capacities.

Any kind of director's assistant work,

PA work, art department work.

I've held some boom mics and seconded seed here and there

on indie features.

Just like being around creative people and like being on a set

and learning.

I've never stepped on a set and not learned something in any capacity.

But always was like writing and directing my own stuff,

what I could on the side, largely like in the sketch comedy space.

I came up putting a lot of stuff on funnier die.

I had like 40 sketches on there on the homepage and signed

with a manager who got me like a comedy central digital series.

So did a couple things with them and I've directed with almost Friday TV

and some music videos and always in the short form digital space

while trying to like get my indie features made.

I wrote a couple of their indie features.

So let's take it from the beginning.

So grew up in Santa Clarita like, you know,

did you always love film?

Was there a moment?

Was there a movie, a scene that was like this is what I got to do?

Like tell us like how young Austin was.

I think the one that made me learn what a director does

or like that I was like that I remember saying like, whoa,

like someone we're in the hands of someone's like vision here.

This is crazy. It was magnolia. It was PTA's.

Oh, yes. Yes.

That really, I even have one of the mugs right now.

It'll frog.

Oh, there you go.

Okay.

From the moment that prologue plays like an eight minute kind of like about,

you know, happenstance and like, you know, chance.

Like the moment that even the title card hits and before even meet the main ensemble,

you're like eating out of his hand.

I love that movie.

It's not for everyone, but that's for me, baby.

And that definitely kicked off me looking into more of his body of work

and just what influenced him and going down the Altman, you know,

rabbit hole and stuff and what age were you when you went to see magnolia?

Oh, I was really young.

I was like 10 years old.

I love that mom took you to see magnolia.

Oh, no, no, no.

It wasn't even in theaters.

It must have been 2001 or something like that, where she had a, it was,

you know what, I was drawn to was she had it on VHS.

And as you know, magnolia is like three hours and change.

Sure.

So it was, it was, you had to switch the VHS.

It was two, it was a two VHS stack.

And yeah, it really, I think left a, left a mark on me.

And just now he like moves the camera and just what he does with the Kevin,

Tom Cruise is character.

This is the best Tom Cruise performance in my opinion.

I love the Frank T. J. Mackey arc in that character.

Seeing when he's next to his dad dying is like that.

Yeah.

And I mean, if you want to get, and if you want to get into it a little bit,

I mean, like I also was raised by a single mom.

Like I've never, I've not met my biological father.

So that storyline definitely cut pretty deep.

And yeah, I think that was the movie that was really impactful.

There was a couple others like, you know, seeing little Miss Sunshine and children of men.

And my grandpa was a big Kubrick fan and like watching like Dr. Strangelove.

And those were kind of the things that shaped me.

My mom showed me dog day afternoon when I was pretty young.

Like these, these kinds of movies, I think, were the ones that like sparked my interest in film.

Walk us through what that was like when you decided to say, this is the path.

Yeah, I think, I mean, senior year of high school, I knew I was going to go to community college

at community college, a college of the canyons, shout out Mike Leach.

And that was largely where I learned how to essentially write and direct.

Like you are adapting material for these like little 10 minute speeches.

And then also watching your teammates and giving notes on performance.

Which is that's what direct like how do you like achieve a more authentic engaging performance.

You give some notes, you watch it, you study it, you practice it, you rehearse it.

And that, that definitely gave me the bug for writing and directing.

And then also started a, I had some really impactful community college cinema professors,

Max Keller and Gary Peterson.

He wrote my letter of rec to USC.

Like he let me start a film club and I owe a lot to that school and those professors.

So you're at community college, you're doing the film thing, you two years in,

you decide then I'm going to film school.

I applied to UCLA and USC.

I heard from UCLA first, like I got into UCLA and I was about to guy like a dorm

and a potential roommate and I'd signed my letter of intent and stuff.

Once I heard I got into USC and their financial aid division,

like brought me in and quartered me and kind of said like, well, what,

how much are you going to be paying at UCLA?

We can match it here with financial aid and stuff and they give you the,

the razzle dazzle tour of their facilities and yeah,

it just made sense to sign up there.

How many years were you at USC?

I transferred in 2012.

It was on my dime.

So I was like, well, if I'm paying for this school, I want to get, I want to like,

ring the towel of as much film juice as possible.

And you know, I would PA on as many student thesis films and then try and write

and direct my, as many of my own thesis films that I could do.

And then 2015 is when I was like finishing up my general ed classes that didn't transfer over

and was entering Anna Perna pictures for a second semester.

So Megan Ellison, David Ellison sister and, um,

Brandon Anna Perna pictures. And it was, I mean, this was an era.

It was a very cool time to be at Anna Perna because they were starting to give you.

Yeah. Yeah. That was the, yeah.

The height.

This is even before that. I mean, they're coming off a round of like, um,

zero dark 30 and American hustle.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. There's her and you know, just really cool,

uh, a tour driven cinema.

And, um, so yeah, I was learning a lot there and there's a very intimate small place.

I was like getting to see these execs work with these directors, um,

like up close and personal and it was, I was learning a lot.

And then through that, I got a chance to interview to be David O'Ressel's assistant,

um, while it was in my last semester, um, of SC that spring of 2015 and was going

through like rounds of interviews to work for him, um, on the movie that ended up being joy.

I didn't even, they were so secretive you didn't even know what the movie was at the time.

So you're doing these jobs to pay the bills, get the experience.

You had the vision that you wanted to direct and write at this point.

Were you writing on the side like what was, what was like, what we, did you have your eye on the prize

of something longer term or were you just like in the moment, I'm just going to learn and then I'll figure it out as I go.

I mean, in the moment while in production on joy, there was no time.

I mean, I was working like seven days a week.

Some of these days I was doing like 16, 17 hour days.

Sure.

Um, so there was no real writing on the side what we were in production.

But my friend Sam Sanwise, he's a producer who produced talking off.

We was working at at breakwater and said like, hey, um, we have these sci-fi web see like narrative sci-fi web series.

Things called hair haven origins coming up.

Um, you should hire this guy Austin to direct one.

He's, he's working for David O right now.

Um, but he'll be back in the fall and you guys should work together.

And at that point, I like hadn't finished at SC.

I was kind of debating actually going to SC in the fall.

Um, but then this sci-fi web series job was just enough like to pay rent for a month or so.

And, and get pinned it was my first paid directing job.

Like the first time getting paid.

Yeah, that's a big deal.

Something.

Yeah.

So then what got you going on?

Because I want to get to the dead man's wire.

Right.

So give us a little fast forward.

So you're writing your, your, your making it work.

Uh, yeah.

I get some made the basically from the 2015 to 2020 is just like directing sketches, like working as a director.

Is like working as an assistant, squirreling away money and then producing like I produce some low budget features.

And then reinvesting that money into my own directing work.

So like having like that's fantastic.

Yeah, it's my advice to people.

It's like, hey, go work.

You know, go and I, you know, I'd done some lip driving to when I was at it and a partner like do whatever job you got to do.

But then try and reinvest a little bit, um, into your own directing or writing.

But you know, Tarantino wrote natural blank killers and true romance and stuff before making reservoir dogs.

So it's like, maybe I could write something that will sell to a studio to a bigger director that I could be on set and do the production or vision.

I saw footage of Tony Cretzis and Richard Hall on YouTube set out loud.

How has this not been made into a movie?

Like the way this guy Tony is, is operating and talking and, and the look on Richard's face and just, I mean, I'm slipping on the ice and stealing a cop car

and this press conference and the emotion and the tension, but also the kind of like the awkward shuffling and the very human interactions between him and the cops who know each other.

I just was, I was floored by and just, you know, knew it had to be a movie.

So started developing it as a film and gone contact with Alan Barry and Mark Enoch's, who are kind of the foremost historians on the subject matter.

And they opened their books to me about this case because they're from Indianapolis and had interviewed a lot of people involved.

And yeah, just to me felt like the kind of movie I wanted to go see something that's, it's tense, it's dramatic, but it's also darkly comedic and, and then is saying something about America, the American dream and, and class and it just, again, going back to way back to high school, it's like if I hadn't done film, I think I would have done history.

I like history.

I like the storytelling of it.

I want to stop you there because that's a really important tip is that you should, you wrote something that you wanted to see.

And I say this all the time to writers and it's something that I live by too, like, right, like Tarantino said, like, right what you want to see.

100%. Yeah, I think that is the most important audience member to be thinking about is yourself.

To get a movie like onto the big screen and made it's a hell of a journey.

Like David O would always say, like, Austin, you're going to die like nine times over and be reborn. Like any worthy endeavor in life, like you, like, basically, and I've had that, like, throughout the journey of Deadman's wire where like, things would happen where it's like, oh shit, it's completely dead.

It's never going to be made. Oh no, it's coming together. No, no, it's falling apart again. Like, I think any journey has that. So it's like, if you're doing it without any harder passion in what you want.

The final thing to be just as like, oh, like, I think this will maybe sell or some people like this. Like, I don't know if it's worth it. You kind of have to be all in on it.

So take, take us right before the great news comes in that changes every screenwriter's life. Right. So your, you know, are you struggling? Are you struggling?

You're writing, you're doing this and like, you know, you wrote the spec, you're getting people maybe attached like, walk us up to like that moment before you get the call that like, hey, this is all coming together.

And like, it is a life changing moment to be candid. I tried to get the script to Gus. My manager shared this with a company that did his last movie. And I tried, and I like the emails though. And like 2022, I tried to get this to Gus. I wanted Gus and Jack Black. That's what I kind of had in my head.

It's like the Tony, the Tony director pairing. And yeah, it didn't come to fruition then. And then yeah, and then I did end up signing an option with Cassie and L. Ways and Tom Culver.

Who, who, Dictom really went to bat for this and saw the vision for it. And was one of the only places to put option paperwork.

I don't know if you guys have talked about like the option paperwork cycle of screenwriting. But it's like, I think it's helpful because I didn't really know what it all entailed either.

But like, a lot of times people will say like, oh, they sold their script or this and that. But it's like, most times a first time writer is not going to just outright sell a script for, you know, a WGA, you know, minimum or more.

It's usually it's a spec script is written and a indie producer company will, if they like it, option it, which is at least essentially they're putting a couple grand down, which is great in the moment because it covers your rent for that month or two.

But then the option is usually 12 to 18 months is what I found is usually the case. And at that point, I very, you know, very lucky had a manager and an entertainment lawyer that we're looking over the paperwork to I think that's also piece of advice.

I would say to any young writers that like if you're going to sign like a big scary contract like trying to get someone in your court who likes has studied law and entertainment law to read that paperwork.

So I have a great lawyer Mark Simon who, you know, kind of pre negotiated the larger terms of what the deal would be if it went into production down the road.

Sure. So a lot of that is negotiation for like what it will be down the road. And then if you sign the paperwork, then it's then they're like leasing they have the right to execute and purchase and produce your script for the next 18 months or so.

I'm super fascinated in like what does that initial pass look like for you? I guess from submission, you know, to your reps to like what does like the Werner Herzog pass look like compared to the Gus Van Sant pass.

And what did you learn from kind of going through the story with them? Like two legendary outdoors.

Yes. I mean, so yeah, I had done a lot of research and put together a draft like the submission draft that went out that I had like hyperlinks to certain archival footage in it.

Yeah, super cool, by the way, like when you sent me the. Yeah, I had like the blueprint of like Tony's apartment on like page two after the title cards. So that was like the submission draft that was going out.

I got the 115 pages of something like that. And the first time they say, oh, Werner wants to meet and talk about the script.

I'll tell the story. It's like, because it's pretty fun. I was so broke. I was so like, I probably an a manic headspace. I had had producers bait and switch things in the past where they say you're going to meet this big person.

Can you do X Y and Z? And then last minute, it doesn't come to fruition or the cancel. And I was like, I'm not going to give you guys the opportunity to like cancel.

Like you can't get my hopes up that I'm going to meet with Werner Herzog about my script. Like I'm not giving you the opportunity to cancel. So I know that he want you guys want me to meet him at 1 p.m.

He's a big producing partners mansion in Belair. And it's a nice day out. It's I'm going to leave my place that already memorized the path. Werner is big on walking if you ever read of walking in ice.

He says like the world reveals itself to those who travel by foot. He's like walked to his mentor before he's a big walker.

Yeah, he says a man on any important mission should walk to it. He should not drive. He should walk to it. So I was like, I'm a dumber follow his advice. So I walked from silver like to it's like a 10 mile walk there and did you 10 mile walk back? Yeah.

And I and I told my manager and producer were like and I told him I was like, I'm not bringing my phone. And they were like, you need to bring your phone and Casey cancels. I was like, that's literally the whole point is I'm not giving you the opportunity to like cancel the hour before.

And then when I got to his producing partners house, they let me and the producing partner was disturbed that I know that he was like you walked here. Wait, what do you mean you walked here? And then Werner knew immediately.

You like sweaty like I mean, no, I I had like kind of cooled off. I got there early. It also was like it was L.A. No, I was wearing like a tank top. It was like L.A. It was like a 70.

Okay, so it wasn't like summer, you know, 90 degree L.A. No, no, it was beautiful. It's honestly one of the days of my life. And then yeah. And then so I sit down and I have two copies of the script. One watermark for him, one for me, a couple pens. And I think, you know, maybe he was expecting me to bring my laptop and hand him the file. But again, going back to my point, I was like, I don't want and one they didn't buy the script yet. So that I have my leverage is like, okay, that's very smart by the way. Love that. Yeah. To be honest, this is going to be a great way to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it

cause a lot of stress and tension. Like it didn't it wasn't necessarily common for this to happen. And I don't know if I advise that people do this, but it just made sense for me with this script and where I was at. I'm going to pause for that because I've heard horror stories, horror stories of people getting their screen plays ripped off. Like there is, I'm not going to name it, but there's a major franchise that was made a major a list star found the screenplay just took it took the right or all. You know, I'm saying like you hear this all the time.

So I love that for the writer, the little guy,

like sticking up and like taking your agency

and like some power because like not that

Runaway have done that, but you took some control

over a business that you feel powerless sometimes.

So I, who does you on that?

Like that's, I've never heard that and I love that.

I mean, Warner understood it at a certain point.

Look, he did try to get the file for me multiple times,

but I also, I made a point never,

I was doing these rewrites and I wasn't getting paid yet

doing these rewrites.

I thought my mind, I was like, okay, cool.

I'm starting on the rewrites with Warner.

That means you guys have to pay me like 50, like WGA,

50, like 50% up front to start the rewrite.

And they weren't, they didn't, they like,

they didn't for seven months.

Like I did like all these rewrites with Warner.

And one of the things, I'll just, I wanna give Danny

the quote that Warner gave me because I think it is important

what I learned from that process.

Even if that's not the movie that got made,

I did, I did learn a lot from it.

One of the first things Warner said to me was like,

Austin and Sam Presman should do the impression.

Oh Sam does the impression.

I've ever, I'll do my tip panel.

Ever.

It's really good.

I'm not as good as Sam, but I'll do my best.

He looked at me and he, because you know,

I've done all this research and he said,

Austin, I'm going to wean you off of the truth

and bring you closer to the facts.

And I was like, wean me off of the tree.

Yeah, wean me dude, let's do it.

And wean me bro.

Let's go.

That was, I think important to hear,

because ultimately film is a director's medium

and Warner's vision for the movie was not,

like Warner did not aspire to do something

that was as based in the historical research that I had done.

Like I think he, you know, he wanted to take

like the essence of the crime.

The essence of it, yeah.

Yeah.

And which is fair.

And I honestly like, I'd still be,

can't, I've be excited to have seen his version of it.

And I think Gus would be too.

Gus is a big fan of Warner's.

But yeah, so like the, the moment he said that,

it was very clear to me that like,

there is going to be like a page one rewrite.

We're going to change all the locations,

all the character names of the kind of,

some of the core dynamics he wanted to change.

Like there was a lot of changes that we did

and I'll cherish that time where like I was like broke

and not complaining to Warner,

because like, you know, he grew up like in true poverty

and like the hills of Bavaria after World War II.

So like I, he didn't need to know about like my,

I had emptied my raw off IRA I had,

I maxed out like six credit cards.

Like I wasn't complaining to him about,

I was complaining to my manager and the producers about it.

But like I, I always kept my meetings

with Warner strictly creative.

I was a kid in a candy store.

I was going to Warner's house and doing these rewrites

and going this through the script line by line.

And you would be calling me on a weekend,

like calling me for like two hour conversations

about the script and stuff and stuff.

Real quick, in his house I just got to know like,

what was the coolest, just real quick,

what was the coolest thing you've seen in his house?

Like what, like give me something.

I like his cat, he has a cat named Moots.

Moots, like a cat alive, yeah.

Like Moots and L.

M-U-T-Z-E-M-U-T-Z-A-O-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K-K.

Yeah, so he's got a cat on Moots.

Yeah, he also had a song, like a, like one of those,

like personal song as I'm like, that's cool, that's that.

But also he was, he did not have like a godly,

just he was very like, it's, he, it was like a library.

Like he had all these books and I'm not trying to

dox them or anything, but like he had a really admirable home.

It was very tasteful, it was great art and really beautiful art.

Great books, he was showing me like, his, he was like,

this is the poetics by Eta, you must read this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The character and I read the paragraph and stuff and,

no, he has a really beautiful home.

So you do all this work with, with Runner,

but it, it doesn't happen.

So what was, what was the break with him as director?

To be honest, it's like, he said, she said stuff where like,

I'm like the child of the vortress a little bit where like,

like, Warner and producers are mom and dad and they,

you know, I had my own bone to pick with, you know,

aspects of like doing these rewrites and not getting paid yet.

Like I was, I was raping Cassie and doing that time too,

but like, Warner went on a scout, it was coming along.

It was going pretty far.

I mean, at one point in time, Nick Cage was gonna act and then,

I was about to ask whether anybody, any actors attached

on Nick Cage interested in it.

Nick Cage, Nick Cage was gonna be in it and then he,

he wasn't and then, but then it was,

what was the shame was that one Warner,

well, I guess I'll tell this part.

So yeah, Warner was on a scout and something happened on the scout.

I don't know what happened, like we were approaching a start date.

Like it was like getting closer to shooting and Warner sent me

an email, a very cryptic email that just said like,

I assume you've not high Austin,

I assume you've not been told I'm no longer a part of our project.

I worked in good faith and it simply lost faith in the production.

I know you've worked incredibly hard.

Trust me, I know I want to thank you for your loyalty, best word.

And like, that, and I called it.

I was like, I tried, I was harassing and I was like,

I was like, please come back.

Like what is happening and he would say,

you would speak it like little riddles.

He'd be like, there's a difference between a castle in the sky

and a truck that will not move.

Like, I mean, he was like, this is this is this is the producers.

He was like, does that mean teamsters was that?

Yeah, like with the teams are like, oh, they're not.

Yeah, what's going on?

I mean, it might.

Yeah, and he was like, it's as if the producers are at the Las Vegas casino

and they're bluffing hand after hand.

You must hold cards at some point.

It was like, and yeah, so I was, I mean, I was going crazy.

I can imagine.

So he's off the pro also at that time.

Okay, too.

So like January, 2024, I was so broke,

but I wanted to keep my schedule open to do these rebrites with Warner

that I went to a job fair in Northridge and got a job at a table

that was for the LA Zoo, which is in Griffith Park right now.

So we're like, sure.

And they had a position.

I was Friday Saturday, Sunday Monday before the zoo opened,

like really early in the morning.

So I was like, great.

So like, I could still get some meetings done on Fridays and Mondays.

And then just on weekends, I'll just have to wake up really early,

and do some manual labor at the zoo.

So I did that job.

I got that job in January.

So like, I think Warner left in like March, ish or something like that.

And then, yeah, basically worked at the zoo the whole year,

but then the option expires.

So then you're hitting the tail end of this, like 18 month option.

And in May, basically, I was like ready to go scorched earth of like,

well, like, fuck, like I've still owed for these rebrites and stuff.

But then right as the option expired, they like, they extended it.

And they paid what I was owed for the rebrites.

How good.

Good.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was the job at the zoo, like, was that advice from Werner?

Because I've heard him talk, like four writers or filmmakers in general,

it's good to get jobs that like are not film related.

Was that an any part advice imbued from him or?

Yeah, it was.

I mean, yeah, he says, like, go be a balancer at a Berlin nightclub,

go be a janitor, go be, go work as a cowhand on a ranch.

Like, I think, yeah, I'd heard that quote from him and took it to heart.

And also, I mean, it's a little mix of both where it's like,

I also just geographically was looking for something close to L.A.

And they're like to silver lay, they can the zoo's pretty close.

So I could bike to that job.

And then my grandpa worked for the city,

worked for department of water and power.

He's like a, like, managed like a forklift, like, work on the warehouse and stuff.

So I knew the city jobs took care of people.

And I don't know, yeah, I think I did get some good writing done while I was there

for other projects and for just like seeing the sunrise and like,

like, cleaning these enclosures and looking at animals,

that was kind of like oddly peaceful and inspiring.

And I would listen to like audio books of, like, William Friedkin's autobiography,

the Freaking Connection.

Like, I associate like, like a time of my life is like, I'm broke,

but like, Warner is made in like, I'm hearing also rumors that like,

Warner and Nick are back, like at one point, like,

I thought they both were off the project, but then someone leaked to,

and it wasn't me, I must, I don't know who did it,

but like, someone leaked that Warner and Nick Cage were attached to this.

So I'm getting all these texts from friends like, hey, congrats,

hey, congrats.

And I'm like, guys, I don't know what's happening.

I'm working at the zoo as a custodian right now.

I don't know.

This is even true.

Right.

And yeah, listening to Friedkin, oh man, his story was great.

You should, I mean, I like reading a book,

but like, if you're gonna do an autobiography,

if you're gonna do an audio book, like, do Friedkin's,

because he reads it himself and he's such a

smarmy, salty, funny guy.

It's a great, it's a great book on Fanny.

So I'm gonna actually download that,

because you know, a big freaking fan.

So, okay, so you're there, so,

Warner leaves in March, right?

You're still there for you.

You're here and rumors back and forth.

You're just praying at this point that this speck you wrote,

that you know people love, like,

and keep in mind, I changed, I changed the script a lot.

And to be candid, so I didn't, I'd done all of Warner's changes.

And like, he had tried to get that final draft from me,

and you know what it was, what kind of flipped a switch,

is like, I told him, it's about my autonomy.

Like, I, I haven't been paid yet for this script.

I haven't sold the script yet.

And it's like, the only thing I'm getting paid in

is like, I see it at the table,

and the moment I give it away,

I'm not gonna have that seat at the table.

I've been financially on my own since I was like 17,

like, my autonomy's really important,

and that's why I'm doing this.

And it was the word autonomy, was like,

it flipped a switch, and I mean,

he was like, oh yes, I understand completely.

Like, he like, I think he respected it at that point.

But we did change a lot.

Like, I basically did every note he wanted,

even some of the ones that I didn't really fully see or love.

You have like this Warner draft that was like his vision,

but didn't work for some people.

Some people didn't like it as much.

And then I think they started going back

to the first draft is what I heard.

And then basically, yeah, it was more radio silence.

I think there was maybe some ups and downs

that I wasn't even privy to,

that there was maybe some other directors

that were starting to talk to,

but I wasn't even in those rooms at that point in time.

And then it was like basically in the fall,

like August or September,

I just hear from a friend who works

as an assistant at a company at the time

and took a screenshot of like a submission

that said like, hey, for this actor's consideration,

director Gus Fanzant, script,

Dead Man's Wire, Biastic Clotting.

And then I was like, what?

Wait, this is too good to be true.

This is like what I dreamed of back in 2022,

like years ago.

And then my manager and I call Tom,

and then he breaks the news that like, yes,

it's looking like it's happening,

but also as we've learned stuff could go wrong.

So I think they were not wanting to call

and get my hopes up again,

but then basically what I found that when they got Gus on board,

a version of the script that I had seen them starting to use

was like basically my first draft again.

It went back to my first draft though it was like,

they cut out maybe 10 pages of it

and then added like a little scene of like this,

the muffin shop sequence.

I was like the only thing that was added

and the rest was just kind of like,

we lost some stuff with like Jimmy the brother

and Fred the radio host and Linda the reporter.

They like cut a few scenes from there.

So essentially they just added the epilogue.

Yeah, okay, cool.

I was gonna ask you about that

because I always kind of thought like structurally,

the films essentially contained to what,

like a three day period.

I was gonna ask you about that specific scene.

Like was there anything?

Oh, let's get him going to where we get going into a film.

So Gus Van Sant, you've seen some mission letters

to actors like when keep us going.

Yeah, then yeah, they're,

I don't know, I'm still working at the zoo

and like hearing that maybe Gus is on board

and he wants to talk some and you know,

I get my first phone call from him

and we talk a little bit and then you know,

little things like, oh, we're going out to

Al Pacino now for the ML character, which that also was like,

whoa, I didn't even think that was possible,

but it was also me wanting to protect myself of like,

I'd still, you know, I like maxed out all my credit cards

is working at the zoo and like,

I'm willing to do more rewrites,

especially if it's to help land Al Pacino,

but like is there some kind of assurance that I could,

you know, live, say this movie doesn't go into production

in January, like you're planning like,

is there something I could do?

So yeah, I was like trying to get,

eat out like five grand from here to do these rewrites.

And yeah, I read Al's memoir that had just come out,

Sunny Boy and another interview series book

just because I wanted to infuse as much of his voice

into this character if we're going to expand the role

and have him and Tony talk with each other.

And then also my friend, Sydney Marquez,

who's a set decorator was hired in Louisville

where the tax credit was and where we're going to be shooting this.

Obviously it's set in Indianapolis,

but with the tax credits.

And honestly, the architecture of Louisville

has not been like super advanced.

It's not like this big glossy sky rises with like glass

and titanium, like it looks kind of concrete in 70s still.

So I thought it was a shot Louisville.

It's a big hub right now shooting Louisville.

It is, yeah, I love the Louisville crew.

And my friend, Sydney was a local hire there

and had worked with our line producer before.

So she started the interview for this job.

And I knew what it was at that point in time

that Gus was on board and stuff.

And then she got the job independent of knowing me.

And then now she's asking for my,

I'm like back channeling with her and giving her like the research

files that Alan Barry and Mark Enox have shared with me.

But I'm still, things are still a little frosty

with me and the producers, but I'm obviously like anytime Gus

fans and just calling him answering that.

And that's exciting.

And yeah, then it moved very quickly.

Then all of a sudden, this is 2024.

It's been like four years at that point.

All the glacial like start and stops, all of a sudden

it's just like, oh my God, like we, the start dates

coming up very soon and we need to finish casting this.

We need to start building the stages and locking the locations.

And then, yeah, it was once I knew that my plane ticket

and everything was booked for me to,

because again, I was like, well, you guys haven't bought

the script, so I know you're gonna do production revisions.

So I'll be there doing it.

I'll do them for free, but you have to put me in a,

hotel at least, so I could be there.

And once that was booked, I gave my three week notice to the zoo.

And I told them I was like, hey, so I think my movie is going

and Louisville, I'm leaving January and they're like,

oh, no shit, I can grasp.

Like they were happy for me.

And yeah, then basically landed in Louisville.

And the moment I landed, it was like Tom was like,

we have to cut the basketball sequence.

We can't find a steady, we can't afford to fill it up.

Like immediately the moment you landed is a reminder,

like, okay, you're gonna have to start killing some baits.

Like, if you're planning, you wanna be the one.

Yeah, you wanna be the one to,

I mean, I guess that's why I wanted to be the one to do it,

because it's like, I know those darlings are gonna be killed.

I wanna have some agency and autonomy

and like how they're shaped and adapted to the realities

of production.

So yeah, the moment I landed, we were on Scouts

already like cutting ending scenes

and combining things and stuff.

So you get there, the movie's real now.

You know this is real, right?

You know, there's, that's what I didn't even breathe

easier until the day, until like Gus called action on day one,

because we had like really bad weather too.

Like the snow on the ground is real.

Which is good, because that's what it looked like on the day.

You get flashbacks of your post college, David.

I honestly know that that was good,

because that was baptism by fire, baptism by ice,

because honestly the weather in Louisville

was not as bad as what Boston was.

So I actually felt prepared this time around.

And yeah, once Gus called action on day one,

then I breathe easier, because then I knew then it started.

That's just like, now you're up and running.

But before we get into the day shooting,

just I wanna just backtrack slightly about,

what was it like working with developing

the Gus fansand vision?

Because I mean, we know the Werner vision,

but like two different directors,

like how was that experience like with Gus?

Gus went back to, essentially like I said, the first draft.

Like he didn't, I think at one point he asked,

like can I read the Werner draft,

but I don't know if you've even had time to even get through.

Like he basically had gone back to the first draft.

They cut a couple things just for the,

just like, just they couldn't afford to shoot it, I guess.

And he just went to the first draft,

and he had very minimal, like his notes for the ML Hall scene

were as simple as, like maybe they talk.

Maybe they could have them talk.

And I was like, okay.

And he's like, yeah, have you seen network?

And I was like, yes.

And he's like, I was like, had he chiavsky and Lamanne?

He's like, yeah, you know that like Ned Bede,

like boardroom scene, I was like, yeah,

like the fire and brimstone, like the most famous monologue

of all time.

And he's like, yeah, just like,

maybe he could lay into him and make it like network.

It's like, okay.

That was like his only note,

but it's a daunting tall order

because you're hearing it from one of your directing

heroes about one of collectively,

all of ours like favorite movie almost.

And I, yeah, I think that's how he liked to direct.

He wasn't super prescriptive.

He, he, it's like the same way he works with his department

heads and actors.

He asked his collaborators, like, what is your instinct?

What do you want to try?

So what made you, and then if he likes it, he says, yeah.

So sorry, I just was, cause it made me think like,

this, this was your top director initially.

What, why did you, in 2020, when you wrote this,

you wanted Gus, like, what was it about?

Gus specifically, all the directors in your head

that you picked him.

Well, it was Tony, and there was two, to be candid,

it was two, it was, in my mind, Tony Crizzus was Jack Black

or Adam Sandler.

And with Jack Black, it was like, oh my God, I love,

don't worry, he won't get far on foot.

I loved the, the term that he gave in that.

And I remember walking out of don't worry,

he won't get far on foot and thinking like,

Jack Black had went in Oscar if he had like a leading role

and Gus directed it.

Like, they worked really well together.

So that was, that was part of it.

It was like, I just thought, and all, you know,

Gus's ability to tap into that dark sense of humor,

if you look at like, to die for and drugstore cowboy,

even shades of milk too, but then also, you know,

the tension, like the elephant style milk, you know,

tension.

And then ultimately, yeah, I mean, it has,

the movie has a lot of heart too.

And I think a lot of Gus's movies have a lot of heart.

So that's what, that was the pairing there.

And then another, back in 2020, I was,

if it was Sandler, I wanted the safeties.

Like before they split.

I didn't have that, my mind as well.

Yeah, I just knew.

Yeah, but I knew it.

It could be fun.

Yeah, but I, I knew I wanted it to go.

But, you know, the first draft, in my opinion,

was like a $25 million studio movie.

It was like, oh, like a focus features

would make this for $25 million or something.

But as the movie was getting closer to production

and we're cutting scenes, it was clear that this is not,

it was probably closer to 10 mil,

was like what the budget was.

And this was not going to be this big, big shoot.

Like this was a very tight, like shoot.

This was a 19, 20 day shooting schedule.

Very, very tight.

And I think only someone like Gus could have gone

through that shooting schedule.

How many days was it again? Sorry.

About 20, essentially.

Yeah, there's like 19 true principle

and then like a 20th kind of pick up day.

Good, okay.

Yeah, it's something on the, the night you just said that,

I thought particularly after reading it,

is that for a thriller that's essentially

contained a handful of locations,

it does feel really big.

What did you kind of do?

Like, I guess like play with the like

small amount of locations you had.

And what specifically were like your biggest challenges,

especially when you had to start killing your darlings

budgetarily to kind of try to fill as much space

as you could with what you had?

Yeah, I think it was like finding a rhythm on the page of like

when to pop out, when to give these little moments,

like, you know, peaks and valleys and cascendos,

like just between Tony and Richard.

And then having that feed into the rest of the world

reacting to this situation.

And trying to not miss out on certain storylines

and perspectives for too long, like,

like, oh, we should know how the cops are talking about it

at this point.

Oh, let's go check back in with Linda.

Let's see how the crowds are reacting.

Because to me, that was like the interesting thing

in the archival footage was like some people kind of

taking Tony's side and saying like,

yeah, like I've heard some sketchy things about this company

and people calling into friends and being like,

yeah, if this company did this,

then there should be a grand jury investigation into them.

But it was like a workshop test.

Cause then some people would be like,

hey, I go to church with Richard.

He's a good man.

This is horror.

This guy Tony is crazy.

He's out of his mind.

So I wanted to always check in with Indianapolis

to see how they felt about what was unfolding.

And yeah, it makes it feel more big than just,

you know, a stage play of just the two guys in the room.

And interesting cause this was what,

what this was February of 2025.

When we shot it, you're saying?

Yeah.

Yeah, January 2025.

And then when did the dude who shot the health,

the health CEO that happened?

I think in November, December,

it happened.

So that was really right in that same timeframe.

Yeah, well, like Gus was already attached.

They had bill attached, daycare attached,

like they were, you know, building locations and then,

and then the United Health assassination happened.

And yeah, it's born from a similar seed of discontent

and like an economy or so.

So I mean, ours is like real estate and, you know,

the Luigi case is healthcare.

And you know, now that you guys have seen the movie,

you read the script like,

and if you're listening this far into the podcast,

sorry, I guess we're getting the slight spoilers

for the film, ours does not end the same way

that the real Luigi case did.

And I actually don't think I've said this like,

if our movie, if Tony and Richard's story ended

and tried like true tragedy and bloodshed and everyone dies

and it's a massacre, like I don't know if I would have approached,

I don't know if that's like a fun movie to watch.

I don't know if the ending of that movie

is that cinematic to me in a way,

like the ending that we have is like the button of it all

being the core case, that kind of epilogue of the verdict.

And like Tony's starting to run his mouth again

is like, it's funny to me, it's a punchline.

And that's why I think I approached it with the tone

that I did is because it had the ending that it did.

And so I try to draw distinction and clarify that I'm not,

like I understand the parallels,

like because people, I see I read all the letterbox reviews

and stuff, so I see people say the Luigi parallels

of it all.

And then that, I mean, it is timely, right?

Like I think it is, it's a reminder that this is relevant

and like history doesn't necessarily,

that's another review I read that I love.

They said history doesn't necessarily repeat itself,

but it certainly rhymes.

And I know I've heard that, that's excellent.

Yeah, I forget that I should give the, it was on letter,

but I literally do read every letterbox review

for better for worse.

But yeah, that's been cool to see,

it's just people's pros on the movie,

just informing things for me and just impressing me.

But yeah, I think the character of Tony raging

against a system that wasn't working for the quote,

quote, common man struck a chord with people in 77,

and then it struck a chord with me in 2020

when I was writing it.

And now, you know, in 2025, it's even more relevant,

some ways.

It's pretty clear, I mean, I think,

like, I mean, Puccino's in it,

I watched the movie in the first film I thought of

was Dog Day afternoon.

Are there any specific kind of North Star films

you were thinking about tonally while you were writing this?

Yeah, I mean, I gave a, there's like a big list

I gave recently to the synagogue,

but I think if I had to pick three, it would be Dog Day,

it would be Fargo, it would be probably a little bit

of uncut gems with the way that Tony is kind of,

this charismatic, you know, somewhat gambling,

constantly upping the anti figure,

and that just his vocal cadence and cracking jokes and stuff.

But yeah, Dog Day in terms of structure,

like I didn't want to do the biopic version

of this movie where you're seeing Tony,

you know, developed the land and it's like,

and you go through the whole courtroom procedural after

and every, like I wanted to see,

to me, the mean potatoes of it is when that device,

the Deadman's line or Deadman's wire is like strapped to Richard,

like that's the, that's the heart of the movie.

And, you know, opening with Tony,

just arriving and trusting that audience is as smart

and as if you give some context clues and allow people,

it'd play the archival footage of people explaining

what seems to be going on, like people will fill in

those blanks and understand he has a bone to pick

with this mortgage company,

he's accusing them of deterring renters.

I just wanted him to arrive with the box

that had the gun in it similar to Dog Day afternoon,

like the movie just starts in there,

boom, they're walking in the bank and I think,

but you know, as Sonny is getting that gun out

on like page four, page five.

So, just because we're getting short on time

and I wanna make sure we cover this area.

So, the movie's made in the can, it's released.

Like, how has your life changed now, right?

Problem, I mean, I love that you shared all these stories

of how you grew up and the janitor work at the zoo.

Like now, you're a produce screenwriter

on a big, big film might your piece went out,

but I'm gonna go anyway.

And, you know, Gus Van San, it's getting all,

you know, press and everything.

How has your life changed now?

You know, since this has been released

and shown to the world.

Yeah, I mean, I have to like express gratitude, right?

Like this is, this was the dream of like getting in

the hands of a big director like Gus.

And then this cast was like a murderers row.

I mean, how great is Coleman Domingo?

And this is how great is Bill and Daker,

Mahala, Carrie Elways is unrecognizable in this.

And I grew up watching Saad Princess Bride

and he just, he threw himself into this role

and he's really put the movie on his back in many ways.

He's really done as much as he could to promote it.

And Al Pacino, yeah, I think I'm a kid in a candy store.

I'm very grateful, but I also, something kind of fun happened

at Santa Barbara screening where we played the movie

and then afterwards Josh Burl and his wife,

Katherine were in the audience and they came up

and talked to Gus because obviously he worked with him on milk.

And Josh came up to me afterwards

and we had discussed some of these similar things

of where I grew up and working at the zoo

and what have you and Josh came over to me

and shook my hand and was like,

I dig your story man, I dig your story.

It feels old school, you know, feels old school.

And I was like, yeah, and he's like, you know what I mean?

I was like, yeah, and he's like, you know,

you work really, you work hard to get your script made

by the right guy and you're off to the races man.

But I think you get this probably,

but promise me you won't drink the Hollywood Kool-Aid.

He said that.

Don't drink the Hollywood Kool-Aid.

Yeah.

And that regard, I, and I've since, you know,

he very kindly did like a Q&A,

he moderated a Q&A in Ohio with me,

which was really cool because my cousins and Uncle

and stuff got to see me on stage with Josh Brolin.

That's crazy.

And he's a great book.

You should read from under the truck.

He's got some good stories in there

with the comb brothers and stuff.

But he asked me the same question,

like how is your life changed?

And I was like, you know, you told me not to drink the Kool-Aid

and it really has, yeah,

I really, you know, I've gotten to be invited

to some very fun, like calling camp

is invited to me to a one battle after another party

where I got to, I got to briefly meet PTA,

but my other, you know, cinematic God.

And like, I'm getting in cool rooms

and I'm meeting with very fun companies.

But to be honest, to be very candid with you both,

I haven't landed that next job.

And I'm back to square one financially,

to be completely honest.

And I need to get another job.

And I have no ego about like, I'm an P.A.

on a commercial later this week.

I'm maybe going to pick up some shifts at the zoo again,

if need be.

I'm pitching, I'm trying to get the next thing.

But I didn't, you know, think that it was going to be this one

ticket that all of a sudden I'm off to the races.

Like I think I knew that, you know,

it's a nice victory, but then, you know,

the path of a filmmaker is not linear.

So I'm still hanging out like my friend Larry,

who I worked as a,

we started at the zoo together at the same time.

Like we went and shot guns out in the desert

with Carlos the reptile of hangar, like keeper.

Like I'm not changing too much like my day to day.

But I am very excited that the movie is out there

and people are talking about it.

It's going to come out internationally.

It's in Italy this weekend, I think.

And then in March, it'll be in the UK

and a few other territories.

And then ideally it'll end up, you know,

on some kind of streaming service down the road.

I like that Roque gave it a theatrical window.

I wish it was a little longer to be honest.

And we didn't get dealt any friendly hands

with the snowstorms when we were rolling out.

But I think it will continue to find an audience.

And I think cinema like this, like, you know,

it's a Gus fans ant film.

It has his stamp, it has his voice and fingerprints on it.

It's now going to be part of like that catalog, you know?

Like when there are these retrospectives of his work

and Pacino's work and eventually down the road,

Bill Scarsgard's work, I think people are going to look

to this for Bill, especially.

I think Bill's fantastic.

And is he, you know, is he the Jack Black add on Sandler

sized looking guy that I had in my head when I wrote it?

No, but like he tapped into Tony in his eyes

and the charisma and the sensitivity that he brought to it.

And yeah, it's a great bill performance.

So I think the movie will continue to find its audience.

And yeah, maybe once on streaming they could do another push.

And I just want people to see it

because I think it's a fun time at the movies.

Go see Dead Man's Wire, support this film.

It's an amazing film.

And like we got a cool little gift here.

I can't believe we haven't even spoken about.

Let's put it up to the camera.

Put it to your camera here.

Your camera here.

Well, show the cover, show the cover.

I don't know, hold on, before we do this.

Like this is the most incredible screenplay book.

It comes in this here, man.

I've never seen in my work.

There you go.

Please return to Merriam Orange Company.

Dead Man's Wire.

It's a very cool piece of merchandise that

I wrote.

And it's okay, Ken Farmer.

Yeah, Ken Farmer is the designer.

Roque put it together.

Mo, Roque really spearheaded it.

And it's a collaboration.

It's not just my screenwriting.

It's our stills photographers,

Stefania, all of her photos are interspersed throughout it.

And she did such a great job.

She was such an integral part of our crew.

And then one of our set dressers took some 35 millimeter

film in it.

And yeah, it's a cool piece.

Go check it out at rocapepresence.com.

Yeah, and also, I want everyone real quick.

I want everyone of our viewers.

Here we go.

Go get it.

Go buy it.

Support it.

It's amazing.

Look at this.

Look what you have stills.

I got to write, I wrote it a little intro to it.

The intro.

The intro is amazing.

It's a two page intro.

I got to quote, yeah, I got to quote Max

Beam is of say anything.

I'm a big say anything fan.

So it was like a fun moment in life.

There I got there.

The best thing real quick is your beginning.

And this was Danny was saying it, how you, you know,

your letter to Gus, hold on.

It was like, it's like, you know, from Austin to Gus.

Hold on, I got it.

It's right here.

It's like, go to the character.

What is going on in the scene?

Where are you going?

I just love how you're just talking so candidly

to look Gus fans in.

Like Danny brought that mic to my attention.

I thought that was so dope.

There's a whole, I mean, I have like stacks and stacks

of all my Warner notes.

I was taking notes left and right at Warner.

There's some good, there's some good gems there.

Maybe down the road, maybe like 50 years down the road

or release those.

But yeah, I'm going back to when I worked for David.

He said, never trust a man who doesn't write everything down.

So I'm a big advocate for like handwritten notes

and right documenting everything.

And to give a shout out.

I mean, that's what we are.

It's a screenwriting podcast, right?

It's writing.

It's like always be writing.

And to give a shout out, I don't know if you had the chance

to ever meet Sam's dad and Prestman.

I have him, but I mean, I use his quotes now.

I mean, Sam gives me all these gems

that he's doled out to him.

So I feel like I've gotten through osmosis a little bit.

So Ed would always walk around with a notebook.

And that's something that I learned.

I worked with Ed and Sam.

And I always, I've seen the one thing I found

is always walk around with a notebook.

And I always carry with me, but it's called, of course,

in my office, a little notebook.

Because it's like, you got to have to take notes.

And it's just a great piece of advice.

But Austin, you are a true gem of a human being.

Like we love, love, love your work.

Like thank you so much for sharing your story today.

We would love to have you on again and talk more

like into the nitty gritty of writing and process

if you ever open for it.

Well, I'd love to, I mean, hopefully I land

one of these other feature gigs.

And maybe within a year I'll be in New York

and we can do it in person.

I'm impressed with that studio here.

I'm going to move it up from out.

You would love that.

And we do love you.

And thank you so much.

I don't know, Danny, if you have any parting words.

Yeah, man.

An incredible story on the page.

Your actual story is a writer and filmmaker is awesome.

I had a blast this week getting to read the screenplay again,

watch the movie again, learn.

Again, there's a lot more.

Just context for your story writing this

than you usually get.

And it's just so beautiful to get to see.

There's 200 pages of awesome stuff in here.

I had an absolute blast.

That's awesome to hear.

They all let the Roque K team know.

Thank you guys for having me on.

No, thank you very much, man.

We really appreciate it.

And we'll speak soon.

Thanks, Austin.

Yeah, appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you.